Advise from the experts please....

T

tlsdad

Member
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Location
BC
Hi Guys. Big gun show coming up LMD BC. I would like to pick up a nice Enfield Jungle Carbine. However, being new to purchasing in the milsurp/gunshow environment, how does one deal with 'finding a good one'??

Is it simply "do the best you can" and hope you dont get stung...or is there gun show protocol,follow-up, honour among dealers at these events??

600.00 800.00 is a lot to invest on an old battle rifle if it turns out to be less than it first appears?.

Maybe it's just "buyer beware"?.

Opinions of the experienced are appreciated. 😊😖👍
 
I don't know anything about them except that there are fakes out there.

Study up on the model and learn what the tell-tale signs of a fraud are.
 
In my experience, when dealing with milsurps, the dealers will let you check out the rifles. If not, avoid since they likely are trying to pull a fast one or hide something. Be courteous, polite, ask before you touch etc, Common sense. Things to look for on Enfields are pretty basic: Has the wood been sanded, cut down etc, is the bluing good, how is the rifling in the bore, do the serial numbers match, if you have a headspace gauge it'd be a good idea to check the headspacing.

One thing to look for on Jungle Carbines as a rule, is to make sure it's actually a really jungle carbine and not a modified No4 since there are a lot of those going around. One way to tell is if on the receiver there's a No4 stamp. If it's a real jungle carbine it'll be stamped "No5 Mk1" and since they were mostly made at Fazerkley it will most likely be stamped "ROF (F)" as well.

Another thing to notice is the bolt handle. There should be a hole drilled into the bottom, however if it's not there it's not a total deal breaker since the bolts were sometimes replaced with No4 bolts if they became out of spec or broken

I think that's most of the major points that needed to be touched on. Others will likely pitch some in as well and/or correct me
 
mrbeil said:
In my experience, when dealing with milsurps, the dealers will let you check out the rifles. If not, avoid since they likely are trying to pull a fast one or hide something. Be courteous, polite, ask before you touch etc, Common sense. Things to look for on Enfields are pretty basic: Has the wood been sanded, cut down etc, is the bluing good, how is the rifling in the bore, do the serial numbers match, if you have a headspace gauge it'd be a good idea to check the headspacing.

One thing to look for on Jungle Carbines as a rule, is to make sure it's actually a really jungle carbine and not a modified No4 since there are a lot of those going around. One way to tell is if on the receiver there's a No4 stamp. If it's a real jungle carbine it'll be stamped "No5 Mk1" and since they were mostly made at Fazerkley it will most likely be stamped "ROF (F)" as well.

Another thing to notice is the bolt handle. There should be a hole drilled into the bottom, however if it's not there it's not a total deal breaker since the bolts were sometimes replaced with No4 bolts if they became out of spec or broken

I think that's most of the major points that needed to be touched on. Others will likely pitch some in as well and/or correct me
Click to expand...

Appreciate the help.
 
gaff said:
have you looked in the equipment exchange ?
Click to expand...

I have...but same or worse problem exists, from my perspective. How does you know what you are gettng?? I accept that this is likely MY issue as it seems to work well for others. Howver, Im looking for hints or insight that i dont seem to have. At least at a show one gets to see/hold what is for sale. Is this just all done on faith??
 
MD said:
I don't know anything about them except that there are fakes out there.

Study up on the model and learn what the tell-tale signs of a fraud are.
Click to expand...

Learn at least as well what the tell-tale signs are of the genuine article.
 
This site linked below should help. Please be advised that the labels on pictures 4 and 5 are reversed. With each No.5 I've seen, and those Ive bought, people ask, "Is that a REAL No.5?" and I actually haven't seen a fake! I attribute this to the demand for them in the states, which caused the fakes to be made, Im not saying there aren't fakes in Canada, but Ive never seen one.

Paying close attention to the lightening cuts that are visible is easy, and a clear signifying feature of a No.5, the rear site should only be graduated to 800 yards. Just check the link out, you will see all the important and obvious details you should look for! Good luck, they are great little rifles!


ht tp://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ri12a.htm
 
No5 bolt handles weren't always hollow - like the No4 it's somewhat haphazard - some did, some didn't. The only real way to be 100 percent certain is to look at the lightening cuts. - I've seen genuine No5's that have been refitted with No 4 sights too. The marking will either be No5 or No5 MkI followed by an F in bracket, for ROF Fazakerly or not followed by an F in bracket in which case the wrist (left side) will be marked M47C for BSA Shirley. The stock may, or may not have a metal fore end cap, both are correct. As always, check the serial numbers, ideally you want the receiver and bolt to match. Most No5 magazines are not serial numbered.
 
Kman303 said:
This site linked below should help. Please be advised that the labels on pictures 4 and 5 are reversed. With each No.5 I've seen, and those Ive bought, people ask, "Is that a REAL No.5?" and I actually haven't seen a fake! I attribute this to the demand for them in the states, which caused the fakes to be made, Im not saying there aren't fakes in Canada, but Ive never seen one.
Click to expand...

The fakes usually weren't intended to be fakes to start with. Back in the 60s you were able to buy kits to 'convert' your No. 4 Mk. 1s to No. 5 Mk. 1s. It was more done by people who wanted a handier rifle for less (as No. 5s were more expensive) than someone who was looking to make a quick buck. There were also companies that sold some post-conversion ones as well to capitalize on the higher price of the No. 5. Also a converted No. 4 Mk. 1 will likely shoot better than a No. 5, simply due to lacking the lightening cuts.

OP if you look up the No. 5 Mk. 1 you will find information unique to only the No. 5 Mk. 1. Depending on what type of example your seeking, you might want all the features, or you might be seeking some of the features, only you know what example you want. Examples include the lower distance rear sight, hole drilled in the bolt knob, and the most tell tale part is the lightening cuts.
 
the 3 key indicators would be the lighting cuts in the barrel knox and the lower wall receiver under the rear sight, also no lug on the right side of the receiver.

after that the bolt handle should have a counter bore serial numbers matching, and the rear sight should be marked out only to 800.

some forestocks had a metal cap other did not.

check that the bayonet lug has not been removed.

and you should be albe to find a decent matching No5 for under $500, you just have to keep looking.
 
A lot of the No4 rifles out there are reconditioned sporters that didn't have their barrels cut down or were drilled and tapped for scopes.

MD, what are you calling a fake???

One thing to remember, $600 for an all original Long Branch No4 MkI or MkI* in excellent condition will be a stretch. Another thing to take into account is that war time manufactured No4s were built up with whatever parts were available at the time of production. If Long Branch had more components of any type than they were using and Savage in the US needed them, the excess was sent to them and vice versa.

There was supposedly a test batch of No5s made up at Long Branch according to a CGNer. He was gracious enough to send me the address of the Toronto store that might have a crate of them in their basement. Well they concurred they did have them at one time but they were long gone. I have never seen one and can imagine that if they existed some entrepreneur turned them into sporting rifles of if a few survived in collections the owners are either tight lipped or don't know what a valuable gem they have.

If the rifles were sent to the UK, which many were and required repair the REMEs didn't look around for matching manufacturers components but used what was at hand to put them back into service. The same goes for UK build No4s. They used what was at hand both for repairs and production.

I can remember as a kid when the local Hudson's Bay store had a table with about 100 brand new No4s piled on a table and in bins. Some of them had Walnut, Beech and Maple all mixed together. Some attempts had been made on some of them to stain them darker to match but not very successfully.

Many of the people that purchase a restorable rifle and then accumulate the correct components together do an excellent job and the rifles are as close to original issue as you will find and may be extremely difficult to tell if they aren't.

Many of the rifles coming in from offshore, like India will have the dreaded Ishy screw, which was considered to be a perfectly correct modification by the British to repair a cracked fore end or to reinforce a fore end for harsh use. The Indians and Pakistanis used their No4s harshly under all conditions. Some of the nicest No4s out there are the Pakistani made No4 MKII rifles built on ex British tooling. Many Middle East nations, Far East nations and European nations used both No1s and No4s as well as other nations in Africa, New Zealand and Australia issued Lee Enfields. Many of them did whatever was necessary to keep them in service as available parts and components dried up. Like it or not those rifles are correct and acceptable for what they are.

I see you are in BC. I will have a table at the Chilliwack show and have some No4s as well as P14s and P17s there. Some are originals and some are put together rifles with original components in every way. The originals are more expensive than the put together rifles but all have correct components without any repro parts.

It is now possible to get repro stocks, screws, swivels, bands etc. Rear sights are still available in the wrap in just about every configuration. Not cheap though. Putting a rifle together with all original components can and often does cost more than just purchasing a whole rifle.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom