Airguns PAL Rated vs. NON PAL grey area legality

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line_ape

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I've been searching for an answer to this question for a long time.

I use to own handguns, rifles and shotguns way back in the 1980's. I've had one FAC 1984-1989 and a restricted permit for a couple years in the 80's. Anyway, I applied for a FAC in 1996 and was refused. Long story. NO, I was NOT charged and have never had a criminal record and have never been deemed 'PROHIBITED FIREARMS'. So, I abandoned the gun scene shortly thereafter and sold my guns, about 20 years now. Being an avid hunter since 1987, I took up hunting again in 2008 and bought a couple crossbows and absolutely love it. The bow seasons are longer and I don't need papers or permits which I've always believed in. In 2009 I tried airgun hunting for Grouse in northern Ontario and love it. Got 9 Grouse with a .177 sub 500 fps air rifle. I have often wondered back then if I was stopped by a CO or cop and asked for a PAL for a non-pal airgun what I would do, because HOW is a CO or police officer able to determine whether or not the air rifle I'm in possession of is over OR under 500 fps? That's the first question.

Being sceptical about human behaviour and our ability to be vindictive, I wonder if there are any safe guards in place to protect non-pal rated airgun owners/hunters against illegal seizure and possible charges. Lets face it, if a cop wants to"believe" the airgun I'm using for hunting small game IS a PAL rated airgun, he/she could make my life a living hell. And I know for a fact that the police data base still states I was "REFUSED FAC" way back when. See where I'm going with this. Is there a legal requirement for me to demonstrate 'in the field' that my air gun is sub 500fps? Then again is there a legal requirement for a officer to determine 'in the field' the actual velocity of my airgun?

Two years ago I legally purchased a sub 500 fps Weihrauch HW97/Hawke scope ($1,000) in .22 and would hate to lose it based on a officers "belief" and his 'REFUSED' data base finding. Some people have said that sub 500 fps airguns are stamped. I can tell you most are not. I just bought 20 acres and plan on hunting on my property and allowing my kids to target shoot. I bought my kids a Diana 240 Classic that is not stamped and a cheapy air rifle that is also not stamped.

Any legal guru's on here can give an opinion. Yeah, I'll take the negative opinions as well. I would like to stay away from jumping through the hoops of obtaining a PAL if possible.
 
I don't think they would really care about airguns.. Unless it's used against people, or cause damage to property. Then if that the case, wouldn't matter if it was PAL or non PAL rated.

I think it would be up to you, to ensure what you using, is legal to hunt with in the area. The serial number or your sales receipt. If came from the factory would tell them if it was SUB FPS and it would be a matter of chrony to see if its Sub 500 and carry on.

Why not call a CO/DNR and ask them?
 
I’m pretty sure that the Weihrauch air rifle that I have is stamped as being under 500 FPS. Of course if I wanted to change out a spring, I could turn it into an air rifle capable of over 500 FPS, but stamped as under.

I would be more concerned about whether or not hunting with an air rifle was allowed at all...
 
Hunting small game here in Ontario is legal with a air rifle except for water foul. I checked my HW97 and it's not stamped. I suspect the vendor here in Canada probably imported a bunch and just modified them to be sub 500 fps.
 
OkayShooter said:
I don't think they would really care about airguns.. Unless it's used against people, or cause damage to property. Then if that the case, wouldn't matter if it was PAL or non PAL rated.

I think it would be up to you, to ensure what you using, is legal to hunt with in the area. The serial number or your sales receipt. If came from the factory would tell them if it was SUB FPS and it would be a matter of chrony to see if its Sub 500 and carry on.

Why not call a CO/DNR and ask them?
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That's the thing. I've seen pics on the internet of the 'F' stamp. Mine does not but as I said in the other response I suspect the vendor probably modified it to save costs. I did chrony the air rifle and it's 49X. Of course some of the newer alloy pellets and light ones shoot faster. I just think it's a huge legal area thats been overlooked by the government. Thanks for the response.
 
line_ape said:
Hunting small game here in Ontario is legal with a air rifle except for water foul. I checked my HW97 and it's not stamped. I suspect the vendor here in Canada probably imported a bunch and just modified them to be sub 500 fps.
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RCMP looks at the box the ag is shipped and not the ag itself for pal rating. Are any of the mass b2's labeled for their non pal rating? The retailer does not get a chance to touch the guns beforehand.
 
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I know where you're coming from line_ape, I'm right there with you but, along with air guns, I also have a number of flintlock and, antique caplock, guns, which I intend to hunt with. The first thing you need to realize is that, a LEO can charge you with anything they want to charge you with, there's just no getting around that. Once you allow that, to be what it is, you can then do everything possible to prove that the guns you are using are, in fact, non-PAL guns. I have all the pertinent laws for my black powder guns printed out and I will carry them with me, anytime I'm using the guns. Pellet guns are not so easy because, as you pointed out, some pellet guns are very easy to modify, making them over 500fps and, I really can't think of any way to prove you haven't modified an air gun. The LEO would have the option of taking an air gun and, putting it through a chrony to make sure it is what you say it is. Hunting with pellet guns is allowed in Ontario, including hunting with a pellet pistol. As far as your past issues with the FAC goes, I can see how that might come into play, if a LEO did decide to look into things a bit further and, I don't have that issue myself but, again, there are only so many things that we can control and, the rest will be up to the attending LEO.
 
line_ape said:
That's the thing. I've seen pics on the internet of the 'F' stamp. Mine does not but as I said in the other response I suspect the vendor probably modified it to save costs. I did chrony the air rifle and it's 49X. Of course some of the newer alloy pellets and light ones shoot faster. I just think it's a huge legal area thats been overlooked by the government. Thanks for the response.
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Than be up to you to make sure the pellet you are shooting, is not faster than 500 FPS.

line_ape said:
I suspect the vendor here in Canada probably imported a bunch and just modified them to be sub 500 fps.
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No, they come sub 500 FPS. Because legally you cannot take a gun classified as a firearm. Throw a different spring and call it a non firearm. Sure you can, but will raise a lot of questions. Alot headaches over a airgun..

Its like people building Crosman 2260s, Discos etc buying the maintube and making them sub 500.. Might shoot sub 500, but still techically is a PAL rated gun.

Good luck getting airgun people to help you fight. They're idea is stay quiet and do nothing.
 
As far as I understand it - discharging an airgun regardless of fps rating is the same as discharging a firearm. If you are not allowed to shoot a firearm where you are it is also the same for an airgun, regardless of whether you needed a license to buy it or not. Airgun use is treated the same as firearm use under the criminal code pretty much. Just think of it like that and you can't go wrong.

Cops have mistakenly shot people holding airguns because they were shooting tin cans where they shouldn't of been and the cops were called, and they came in (rightfully so, after being told someone had a gun out in a public place firing it) with weapons drawn. And in today's liberally charged 'we are all victims' climate I would be careful. Make sure where you live is outside what is considered a city or township limits. Or, just have cool neighbors who don't think someone with a pellet gun is a threat to all humanity everywhere (they are not!!)

In my opinion an air rifle is a right of passage from being a child to being a responsible young person. It's a shame it is being taken from us, when so many of us still have both our eyes, proving they aren't that dangerous ;)
 
If your not doing anything illegal then you will be fine. I would have to think that most police officers and CO,s are familiar with airguns and are not going to make a big deal over it. That being said airgun rules are extremely vague and there is not a definite and clear answer as to the 500 FPS rule. Example is Crosman rates their 22 airguns for a 14.3 go pellet at 70F but what is a 25 cal standard pellet weight? No one knows so most just say test with the lightest pellet made. There are lots of those light pellets so are u expected to go buy a tin of each and test them?
There’s just wAy too much interpretation and something needs to happen to agree what a standard pellet is for each caliber.
On the CAF a fellow thinks using a lead round ball in each caliber would solve the mystery and I agree but chances are that won’t happen because it makes sense
 
I have a lot within a town, so can't use a firearm to dispatch pests... but can use an air rifle legally in town limits.

Long story short, someone saw me with a big bad gun once and had a holy freak out about it and was being very confrontational about it while I was still holding said scary gun. I didn't want to knock his nose off with a punch like I was tempted to so long as it was perceived that I was holding a big bad scary gun... cause we know where that would have ended... so I told said ####### to call the cops and get off of my property.

Cops did promptly show up because I am a business and had report from agitated ####### that I had a gun at this business and who know what else he claimed.... anyways, cop asked to see this air rifle and was pissed off he had to come down for this. No wrong doing on my part.

AND this was a PAL regulated over 500 fps air rifle. It kills rabbits.

Moral of my story, lots don't care about it at all once they know it's only an air rifle
 
TacticalCanuck said:
As far as I understand it - discharging an airgun regardless of fps rating is the same as discharging a firearm. If you are not allowed to shoot a firearm where you are it is also the same for an airgun, regardless of whether you needed a license to buy it or not. Airgun use is treated the same as firearm use under the criminal code pretty much. Just think of it like that and you can't go wrong.
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For plinking purposes this is somewhat dependent on local bylaws. Some areas lump them in with firearms, some don't.

As far as use while comitting a crime, they count as firearms regardless of PAL status.
 
End of the day a kid walking around in the forest with a bb gun shooting at tin cans and the odd squirrel isn't a danger to anyone save maybe himself. But it seems no matter what these days anything that "shoots" something is like this big bad taboo. Not the way I made it nor of course to I buy into it. I guess the moral of the story above is he knew the laws in his area. So it is down to the individual to know what is ok and what is not in their town.

This is why I dream of living out on my own property with a range out back. I'm sure many of us do. Relaxed target shooting is a past time I just don't see a good reason for anyone should have to give up.
 
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