Alexander Mackenzie/ Simon Fraser
- Thread starter conor_90
- Start date
Given the time period of both expeditions all firearms would of course be flintlock muzzleloaders. I know of no detailed description of makers, calibre, etc but there may be something in Hudson Bay Company records of the period if they still exist. Good idea, this is a worthy project, apply for a government grant. Oh sorry I forgot, the government is altering and trying to change our history from "colonial times".
David Henry
CGN Regular
- Location
- West of the big road
I remember reading Lord South Esk's book about his journey across the plains from the east out into the rockies in the 1850's and he mentioned that he brought with him a Dickson double rifle of large bore size and a Purdy rifle I think. Great read, wish I still had the book. D.H.
Funny Ashcroft. I might be more qualified for that than you think professionally, better get that grant paperwork ready...
Fraser and Mckenzie were both with the North West company iirc. would they have used the trade muskets they are famous for? Or was that just merchandise and they packed something a bit better like a brown bess?
Fraser and Mckenzie were both with the North West company iirc. would they have used the trade muskets they are famous for? Or was that just merchandise and they packed something a bit better like a brown bess?
I believe I remember from school that the North West Company was taken over by Hudson Bay Company in Western Canada? If so the records were probably transferred although they may be now lost. I doubt North West Company records from this period could be sourced independantly. They would likely have been issued something somewhat better than trade muskets and if they could afford it may well have had their own privately purchased arms, especially if either of them was the primary meat getter for his expedition.
Yes after what basically amounted to a war the NW company was forcibly merged with the Hudson Bay company.
I was more curious about the muskets than trying to be right, sorry if it came across that way.
Google is giving me nothing, I might try to check with a few people I know. But honestly I was hoping someone could just appease my curiosity, I guess it is lost it is lost to the sands of time.
I don't know much about firearms from this era, but I've been thinking of buying a flintlock, and wouldn't mind something accurate to this period/ these individuals and their expeditions.
I was more curious about the muskets than trying to be right, sorry if it came across that way.
Google is giving me nothing, I might try to check with a few people I know. But honestly I was hoping someone could just appease my curiosity, I guess it is lost it is lost to the sands of time.
I don't know much about firearms from this era, but I've been thinking of buying a flintlock, and wouldn't mind something accurate to this period/ these individuals and their expeditions.
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For surviving British firearms from this period check out some of the UK dealer's sites. The Brown Bess was the common military firearm although there were a few others in limited use. This was a much better firearm than the trade musket which was the bottom of the barrel in both price and quality. There were hundreds and hundreds of makers big and small in Britain and many were producing some of the finest flintlock sporting guns ever made. As both of these explorers were Scottish they would have known of and be tempted by the great Scottish gunmakers of the day. These guns show up on the market in Britain but they are highly valued and priced accordingly. I believe one or more Italian makers are making decent replicas of a few of these guns such as the Mortimer.
Im also interested in this period of history & havent found out too much. I did find a quote from alexander mackenzie where he describes loading his smoothbore pistol with 5 buckshot. Smoothbores were very popular in this period, for long guns as well. The Brown Bess was the surplus Lee Enfield of its day, having been the British army weapon for many years.
And was to remain so for the rank and file of the British infantry until 1838.
flatlandflyfisher
Member
- Location
- Saskatoon, SK
Damn it damn it damn it this is such a tempting rabbit hole to go down!
Yup, MacKenzie was not in the HBC, as noted above. My sense is that the HBC was much more meticulous about records, and having emerged as the dominant company after amalgamation, became the author of the history.
MacKenzie's original journals burned down with his house in Scotland (the Black Isle, near where my family came from) but he did publish an account of the trip, and there's been a lot of writing afterwards. Wait, it's here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35658/35658-h/35658-h.htm. That's just volume one; a quick search on 'gun' comes up blank.
I read up on the grease trails a few years ago, as I was researching a possible motorcycle trip from Bella Coola inland to the Fraser along the trails. Common sense crept in as I realized that that the trails were in dreadful shape, and now either too wet or full of forest fire. I did some hiking from the side of the road.
Stephen
Yup, MacKenzie was not in the HBC, as noted above. My sense is that the HBC was much more meticulous about records, and having emerged as the dominant company after amalgamation, became the author of the history.
MacKenzie's original journals burned down with his house in Scotland (the Black Isle, near where my family came from) but he did publish an account of the trip, and there's been a lot of writing afterwards. Wait, it's here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35658/35658-h/35658-h.htm. That's just volume one; a quick search on 'gun' comes up blank.
I read up on the grease trails a few years ago, as I was researching a possible motorcycle trip from Bella Coola inland to the Fraser along the trails. Common sense crept in as I realized that that the trails were in dreadful shape, and now either too wet or full of forest fire. I did some hiking from the side of the road.
Stephen
From, http://www.northwestjournal.ca/VIII2.htm
Alexander Mackenzie carried a brace of pistols, a hanger (sword), a long gun, and a dag on his trip to the Pacific coast (Mackenzie, 205, 313, passim), and at various times David Thompson reports carrying long knives, a long gun 'slung on his back', and a brace of Mortimer 18 gauge, 18-inch pistols (Thompson, Narrative, 46, 185, 366). In fact, Thompson's pistols are part of an interesting story, as he lent one of them to a Hawaiian called Coxe for the return trip up the Columbia from Astoria in 1810.
Alexander Mackenzie carried a brace of pistols, a hanger (sword), a long gun, and a dag on his trip to the Pacific coast (Mackenzie, 205, 313, passim), and at various times David Thompson reports carrying long knives, a long gun 'slung on his back', and a brace of Mortimer 18 gauge, 18-inch pistols (Thompson, Narrative, 46, 185, 366). In fact, Thompson's pistols are part of an interesting story, as he lent one of them to a Hawaiian called Coxe for the return trip up the Columbia from Astoria in 1810.
flatlandflyfisher
Member
- Location
- Saskatoon, SK
Well, there goes the chance of me getting any work done this week, month, rest of the year.
I will partially take issue with trade guns being of inferior quality to a Brown Bess. I have one HBC trade gun from around 1800 and while it was missing the lock when I got it, the inletting for the original lock showed that it had a bridle on the tumbler. I have a much more modern gun from 1875 and used to own a Barnett percussion trade gun (1885) and both had excellent locks. The partial issue is that I have a NWC trade gun @ 1780 to 1815, now converted to percussion and its lock is a cheap one with no bridle on the tumbler I had a chance to look inside another HBC trade gun of the flintlock era and again a bridled lock of reasonable quality. It would not surprise me if the quality of the NWC trade guns was upgraded as the company progressed into the 1800s
If I were going to travel any distance with a gun, in that time period, it would probably be a trade gun and almost certainly not a Brown Bess. The bess is heavy and requires a lot of lead and powder. A 60 cal trade gun uses 1/2 the powder and 1/2 the lead, both of which had to be packed along with you
cheers mooncoon
Is anyone making Flintlock Trade Guns in Canada these days ?
It's slim pickings for any Flintlock in Canada , even the Lyman Deerstalker is not available , it's a long way from a NW Trade Gun but seems well liked . There is the Pedersoli Indian Trade Gun which isn't an exact replica but is getting closer , most owners at happy with it
It's slim pickings for any Flintlock in Canada , even the Lyman Deerstalker is not available , it's a long way from a NW Trade Gun but seems well liked . There is the Pedersoli Indian Trade Gun which isn't an exact replica but is getting closer , most owners at happy with it
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I used to own a trade gun. A percussion pistol of Edit: 58 caliber or thereabouts. Iron barrel about six inches long, captive ram rod, no front site, smoothbore, iron barrel with Japaned (tar coated) finish. Bag grip.
Seen another exactly like it, but poor condition on display at Cypress Hills. Said to have been found Fort Whoop Up by NWMP.
Which was labelled as typical Hudson Bay trade pistol.
Seen another exactly like it, but poor condition on display at Cypress Hills. Said to have been found Fort Whoop Up by NWMP.
Which was labelled as typical Hudson Bay trade pistol.
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes it appears the Lewis and Clark expedition carried a trade gun almost exactly as you describe Mooncoon.
I do believe the villain in that Hollywood movie The Revelant carried such a "rifle."
