American Gun Co New York SxS 12 gauge

[SilentKnight]

Looking for more info on this double barrel sxs shotgun.

From my research it's a generic "hardware store" gun, manufactured by Crescent Firearms Company for Sears in roughly 1924.
It has exposed hammers and says "American Gun Co. New York" on the receiver and has a serial number of 289245 under the foreend.
It's in average condition, with very clean barrels and some cracking to the stock.

I am curious if anyone can tell me a ballpark estimate value for it, as well as what type of shells would be appropriate to use with it, as I have read that modern, higher pressure loads are not likely to be safe out of it.
I am planning to try it out for grouse hunting this fall with ideally steel shot rounds but I wanted to gather more info on it before I went out with it.

Thanks in advance for any info provided guys, much appreciated. Cheers

 

[canvasback]

Most likely not suitable for the pressure of modern loads. PSI of all 12 gauge modern loads that are not specifically labelled low pressure (or something similar) will be in the range of 11,000 psi. Those barrels are probably happy with 6000 to 7500 psi.

Besides pressure damaging the barrels the more likely problem is recoil......shooting the gun loose or cracking the stock. This is an entirely and essentially unrelated issue to barrel pressure. Many think they are related. They are not.

Recoil is a function of the weight of the ejecta (primarily the load) and the speed the load is accelerated to. On our shoulders it is mitigated by the weight of the gun. I would never shoot anything out of that gun that was more than 1 oz and faster than 1200 fps. And as a 12 ga I would be much happier with 7/8 oz at 1100 fps. You want a soft shooting load. And that would be completely suitable for ruffed grouse.

If you shoot steel out of it you will bulge the barrels.

Value is very little.

 

[Alex McKr]

With that make and vintage of gun, It's possible the chambers are 2 1/2". Though may also be 2 3/4". Only way to know for certain(if unsure how to go about it) is to have the chambers checked by a gunsmith. Or someone knowledgeable about these old guns.

I'd recommend sticking to 2 1/2" shells, until you know for sure. Also, as canvasback recommends, low pressure shells. Regardless of chamber length.

One possible candidate being Kent Gamebore. These feature a 2 1/2" hull, with a 1-oz lead shot charge. Loaded to around 7000 psi. Prophet River may be one source for these shells.

As canvasback warns, steel shot would ruin those barrels, in no time. Bismuth shot though, would make a good, non-toxic replacement.. Kent Gamebore Bismuth-loaded 2 1/2" shells are also available. Operating pressure is not stated.

Reloading your own low-pressure black powder shells, is another option. Both lead shot and Bismuth mate well with 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" hulls. 2 1/2" Hulls are easy to obtain, simply by cutting the pie crimps off regular, 2 3/4" hulls. Then, finish by roll crimping. Not difficult to master. 2 3/4" hulls can take a regular pie crimp. Just about any brand of hull works. Though I've found that straight walled Reifenhauser-type hulls, like Federal, Fiocchi, Challenger(Cheddite), etc. easiest to work with.

Bottom line: Have the gun thoroughly checked by a competent gunsmith, before attempting to shoot it. Value of these guns is also limited.

Al

 

[tiriaq]

If the gun was indeed made in 1924, smokeless powder would have been the standard.
Confirm the chamber length. Probably 2 3/4", but make sure.
Forget the steel shot.
If it were mine, and the chambers are 2 3/4", I'd look at trap loads.

 

[canvasback]

If the gun was indeed made in 1924, smokeless powder would have been the standard.
Confirm the chamber length. Probably 2 3/4", but make sure.
Forget the steel shot.
If it were mine, and the chambers are 2 3/4", I'd look at trap loads.

But modern nitro powders would NOT have been standard. That era began with the introduction of SuperX in 1925. And chamber lengths only started to become standard at 2 3/4” with the introduction of SuperX.

That said, shooting a 2 3/4” shell in a 2 1/2” chamber only bumps the pressure around 600 to 800 psi. So, in my opinion, the critical thing is finding a load down in that 6000 to 7500 psi range. If you are there, with a 2 3/4” shell, you are likely fine.

The problem, if I can call it that, with Gamebore is they are a little hot. Not what I would describe as soft shooting. I use them for hunting only. Never for clays of any sort. I’d be looking for a flat of the Challenger 2 1/2” 1 oz loads in #7, (#6 if that was all they had). Cheaper than Gamebore, much softer shooting, low pressure lead.

And agree……forget shooting steel. Just get that out of your head.

If you don’t know how to check chamber length without the correct tools, post that and I’ll explain how to do it.

 

[tiriaq]

I do not know if the smokeless powders of 100 years ago produced more or less pressure in low brass shells than current loads. I doubt that they were low pressure, given the reports of problems when smokeless loads were being phased in. Modern smokeless powders are much more sophisticated. A lot of development has taken place.

With respect to 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers... The crimp unfolds into the forcing cone, and the load has to squeeze past. A paper shell is a lot thicker than a plastic one. I suspect that plastic shells would result in less of a pressure increase than paper ones.
An extreme example of a load being squeezed through a forcing cone occurs when a "ringed" shell is fired. Compare that with a crimp extending into the forcing cone. Never done it, no intention of trying it, but there are many reports of ringed shells being fired without mishap. Apparently a ringed shell produces a dramatic slug like impact on target.

The OP's gun looks to have had its barrels shortened. Should be fine for grouse.
The OP also asked about value. I would suggest value would be very nominal.

 

[Snider shooter]

I have one with 20” barrels. Chambers in mine are 2 3/4”. Not sure if that’s original or they have been reamed out but was checked with a gauge. I use low pressure reloads in mine and haven’t had any problems. They are cheap guns but usable with the right loads. The finish on mine is pretty well gone. Stocks I removed a layer of varnish someone put on them and applied Tung oil.

 

[Alex McKr]

SniderShooter: Your chambers are likely original. It's my understanding that Crescent did manufacture guns with 2 3/4" chambers. As did other companies. As a matter of interest, in my shotgun battery is a 1923-vintage Ithaca 'Flues' model double, which features 2 3/4" chambers. So the chamber length was indeed common during that era.
I have seen some references to 2 3/4" (12 gauge)chambers being used for live pigeon guns, as early as the 1870's. Though not common. These were loaded with heavy charges of black powder.

 

[The_Gun_Boy]

With most American or Belgian lower end guns of this period I stick to black powder personally.

I personally think that this being American and slightly later and 12ga I'm thinking it would be a 2 3/4" but its best to be safe and quickly have it gauged by a gunsmith, which probably would be at no charge.

In my opinion value would be $250 and below. Considering the availability of more modern double guns around and that are plentiful. I also sold a gun very similar and not cut down and in very good condition at a gun show for $225.