Angry Canadian Gun Nuts?

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Lookingforantiques

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I have a Webley pistol listed for sale and it made a certain user quite upset. I was sent a message saying that anything above a 5000 serial number is not antique on a Mk3. I find that odd considering the pistol came with an RCMP letter.

Does anyone have further information on how to properly date a Mk3? Thanks very much.

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The certain user was calling you out?
Dont sweat it man, block the guy by ignoring him/her and move on to someone who is less confrontational.
Especially if they are the ones thinking of buying it.
Imagine the schitz storm that would unfold if you where to go further alonh with this.
Rob
 
FLHTCUI said:
The certain user was calling you out?
Dont sweat it man, block the guy by ignoring him/her and move on to someone who is less confrontational.
Especially if they are the ones thinking of buying it.
Imagine the schitz storm that would unfold if you where to go further alonh with this.
Rob
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Totally solid advice!
 
If the OP would like to e-mail me John@wolverinesupplies.com I will look through my records at the weekend. I think I have had problems with the MK III status. If I remember correctly it is do with military verse commercial assignment of serial numbers and the year. Certainly some MK III are antique and others are not, another can of worms at best. In my opinion a gun is what it is, not what a piece of paper may say it is, no matter who's letter head it is on. Just like the FRT has no legal standing.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
If the OP would like to e-mail me John@wolverinesupplies.com I will look through my records at the weekend. I think I have had problems with the MK III status. If I remember correctly it is do with military verse commercial assignment of serial numbers and the year. Certainly some MK III are antique and others are not, another can of worms at best. In my opinion a gun is what it is, not what a piece of paper may say it is, no matter who's letter head it is on. Just like the FRT has no legal standing.
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Thank you, Mr. Wolverine. Be chatting with you soon.
 
FLHTCUI said:
The certain user was calling you out?
Dont sweat it man, block the guy by ignoring him/her and move on to someone who is less confrontational.
Especially if they are the ones thinking of buying it.
Imagine the schitz storm that would unfold if you where to go further alonh with this.
Rob
Click to expand...
Agreed , I just wouldn’t block em , everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it’s more fun when their fuming for stupidities
 
My dog isn't mixed up in this, but as per your ad, that letter is not for the arm that you are selling? You are assuming that since yours has a lower serial number, it also "must be" an antique? Lots of evidence of many manufacturers who set aside "blocks" of serial numbers for specific features, so serial number order does not guarantee date of manufacture order... Your question remains valid, though - how are we to determine date of manufacture for these arms? Would almost need some reference material documenting serial number range produced over a certain calendar period? Hopefully Mr. Wolverine remembers to look it up and shed light on this for us!!
 
Mr Wolverine said:
If the OP would like to e-mail me John@wolverinesupplies.com I will look through my records at the weekend. I think I have had problems with the MK III status. If I remember correctly it is do with military verse commercial assignment of serial numbers and the year. Certainly some MK III are antique and others are not, another can of worms at best. In my opinion a gun is what it is, not what a piece of paper may say it is, no matter who's letter head it is on. Just like the FRT has no legal standing.
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A few years ago I bought an RIC Webley from Wolverine as a Restricted gun. My research showed it to be Antique so I applied
for that status from RCMP & got it. I then told John Hipwell about that . He said that requests for Antique Status from RCMP
can be given or denied depending on which person handles your request . Good for me , this time.
 
Your Mark III is definitely antique and you have the RCMP paper to prove it. There is a service that researches Webley history and you can find out a lot about your revolver from them. (there is a charge for it) I recently donated a Mark V that was traced to a private purchase by Lt. H.A F. Gibson 58th CEF to the Royal Canadian Regiment museum. I have a Mark VI that I use occasionally at the range with RCN marks from 1916. If it is still a .455 you can have .45 Colt brass machined down to reload for it. Don't use .45 acp factory ammo, get mild lead reloads for safety. Enjoy the Mark III.

"Some commercial models of the Mark III in calibre .455/.476 were produced with either a 4" or 6" barrel. Another option was to have a squared butt instead of the birds head grip, this was similar to an option on the WG models. A separate, reshaped frame casting was used to accommodate the flared grip. Serial numbering did not continue on from the Mark II, the lowest observed number was 101 and the highest being number 80012. The Mark IV was introduced in summer of 1899.
 
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Take this for what it is worth as we all know the RCMP can and do change their opinion often. I was advised by the RCMP that they consider all Webley MK II and commercial MK III as antique.

The photos the OP sent me clearly ID the Webley as a commercial model. The serial # is on the side of the frame, this is not to say that a British Military officer did not privately purchase her and carry her, as this was a normal practice in those days. There is only one number, this is not stamped anywhere else.

UK military Webley MK III had the serial # stamped on the "upper" and the frame at the hinge.

I had an antique letter for a MK III serial # 4035, commercial model.

I need to double check, I can't open the computer I need from home, but I think another MK III I had was serial # 79387, I believe the serial number position (at the hinge on both parts) was a give away that she was military and the RCMP denied her antique status.

I hope this information helps clarify things. If I have time I will do some further research but not sure what the serial number was when the military first purchased them. Obviously the date of manufacture not the customer determines if an antique or not in Canada.
 
so I called the rcmp lab to find out whet the number range for Antique Mark 3's..... I was told and given an FRT number that all Webley MKIII in .455 were now considered antiques
 
jmcgee said:
so I called the rcmp lab to find out whet the number range for Antique Mark 3's..... I was told and given an FRT number that all Webley MKIII in .455 were now considered antiques
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Well that cant be right, I have a commercial MKIII that i tracked through the army navy sales records to January 1900, serial number in the 78000's though.
 
Clearly we have a lot of conflicting information about Webley revolvers. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong but this area is very confusing. I just went to open the FRT (for what it is worth!) but the RCMP system is down right now.

I purchased a Webley MK V once as a restricted firearm, on close examination I realised the frame was a MK I, the serial number on the frame was on the side indicating a commercial model. There was another serial number(different) on the hinge of the barrel, indication a later military? model and she was clearly marked MARK V on the side of the top strap. There were no War Dept arrow head markings anywhere that I could find. I was later told that she had been verified by an RCMP member, clearly he did not have a detailed knowledge of firearms, as do most verifier's. I applied to have her classed as antique and she was approved as antique.

I know of other antique handguns that have been approved as antique but in my opinion they are not. I couldn't sell one of them with a clear conscience in case the new owner got into trouble.

Some manufactures assigned serial number blocks to different models or contracts, often not all these numbers were used,sometimes the manufacture went back and used these "spare" numbers at a later date, sometimes they didn't. A lot of manufacturers records have been lost over time so often it is impossible to say with any degree of accuracy the date of manufacture.

When I can open the FRT I expect to find some MK III list as prohibited, restricted or antique. I will report back when I have that information, but let me also add that I personal put no faith in the FRT as it is full of errors.

In all fairness to the RCMP and everyone else, new information about different firearms is always surfacing, there is always something new to learn, this is one of the most fascinating things about collecting and dealing in older firearms.
 
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Trapperjose said:
Nope. Read how they write those letters. "Based on the information you supplied...."
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In my personal opinion a firearm is what she is, not what any piece of paper claims it is. A court would also have to prove "criminal intent" but if the "antique" fell into a prohibited class (In this discussion a Webley MK III with a 4 inch barrel) she could not be re-registered as a restricted firearm. Remember this is only my opinion I am not offering legal advice, as I said before this is a confused area at best.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
In my personal opinion a firearm is what she is, not what any piece of paper claims it is. A court would also have to prove "criminal intent" but if the "antique" fell into a prohibited class (In this discussion a Webley MK III with a 4 inch barrel) she could not be re-registered as a restricted firearm. Remember this is only my opinion I am not offering legal advice, as I said before this is a confused area at best.
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I'd agree in that a gun is what it is. My point was that these letters would be of very little help in a court room. These antique letters get used incorrectly one needs to look no further than the topic at hand where the OP is selling a gun with a letter for the wrong gun. There are a few less than reputable antique dealers in canada and a forged letter wouldnt surprise me at all.
 
Trapperjose said:
I'd agree in that a gun is what it is. My point was that these letters would be of very little help in a court room. These antique letters get used incorrectly one needs to look no further than the topic at hand where the OP is selling a gun with a letter for the wrong gun. There are a few less than reputable antique dealers in canada and a forged letter wouldnt surprise me at all.
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In this case the OP has a letter for an identical gun with a higher serial number to support his gun as antique, I see nothing wrong with that. There is nothing to say that an antique has to have this letter. I normally don't bother with getting a letter if the gun in question is clearly an antique.
 
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