This I would be very interested in, if it comes in at a good price point and function well.
Annealing Newbie
- Thread starter daroccot
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This I would be very interested in, if it comes in at a good price point and function well.
Is it only me, or did anyone else get completely confused over this thread?
After all, two people came on as experts on the subject, so I read each carefully, only to realize they differ on the proper temperature by about 100%!
I anneal cases by the ancient method of setting them in a pan of water. I use the torch to heat the neck and shoulder until they glow a nice red, then tip them in the water.
I had no question about a nice red not being the proper temperature, because I have watched, or helped, several aircraft engineers anneal spark plug gaskets before replacing the spark plugs. Aircraft spark plugs use a gasket that is just a ring of solid copper and it has to be annealed every time it is removed. Many of the engines had eighteen spark plugs, so it took a lot of annealing. The standard procedure was to hang all the gaskets on a horizontal rigid wire over a pan of water. They would push a gasket near the end of the wire with a small steel tool and heat the gasket it with a torch. They would heat it until it glowed a nice red, then push it off the end of the wire and let it drop in the water.
Aircraft engineers are well trained and have a great knowledge about what they are doing.
I also anneal the shoulder of the case, because I have had several rifles that required the shoulders to be annealed, or else the shoulder would spring back after sizing and the newly loaded round would not go back into the chamber of the rifle.
I don't remember ever ruining a single case, because of it being too soft, or "over annealing," as has been stated can happen.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to do it, I am merely pointing out I do it and it works great.
After all, two people came on as experts on the subject, so I read each carefully, only to realize they differ on the proper temperature by about 100%!
I anneal cases by the ancient method of setting them in a pan of water. I use the torch to heat the neck and shoulder until they glow a nice red, then tip them in the water.
I had no question about a nice red not being the proper temperature, because I have watched, or helped, several aircraft engineers anneal spark plug gaskets before replacing the spark plugs. Aircraft spark plugs use a gasket that is just a ring of solid copper and it has to be annealed every time it is removed. Many of the engines had eighteen spark plugs, so it took a lot of annealing. The standard procedure was to hang all the gaskets on a horizontal rigid wire over a pan of water. They would push a gasket near the end of the wire with a small steel tool and heat the gasket it with a torch. They would heat it until it glowed a nice red, then push it off the end of the wire and let it drop in the water.
Aircraft engineers are well trained and have a great knowledge about what they are doing.
I also anneal the shoulder of the case, because I have had several rifles that required the shoulders to be annealed, or else the shoulder would spring back after sizing and the newly loaded round would not go back into the chamber of the rifle.
I don't remember ever ruining a single case, because of it being too soft, or "over annealing," as has been stated can happen.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to do it, I am merely pointing out I do it and it works great.
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That is exactly what has gone on. And I can even explain the discrepancy, though I am afraid at the end of it you still won't know for sure who's right.
Every reloading manual written (and many other articles and postings in magazines, online and elsewhere) in the last 30 years tells the story of work hardening of brass due to multiple cycles of firing and reloading, and the resultant loss of ductility and eventual fracture. They also tell of annealing solving the problem by recrystallizing the brass. This is the position taken and held by just about everyone.
My position is that the whole storyline is hooey. That none of the articles presents any evidence that work hardening of brass occurs to any significant degree, that fracture due to ductility loss caused by firing and reloading could occur in a time frame short enough to matter to most of us, that recrystallization is necessary or that anyone ever determined what temperature is required to achieve said recrystallization. And I have taken a significant number of brass cartridge cases into metallurgical laboratories to document their degradation, so that after a couple of years I was thoroughly convinced of my position.
So that is why there are contradictory statements. There is basically the widely accepted theories and then there are my theories.
It is worth noting that this probably doesn't matter to the average reloader, I am not suggesting that cases don't crack, or that annealing doesn't help prolong their life. I simply believe that the supposed explanation behind it all is wrong, which most people won't care about, anyway.
The only other point I will make is that nowhere in the accepted wisdom storyline is there a definitive statement of what temperature to use for annealing. Numbers suggested range anywhere from Hornady's provision of 475F tempilaq with their annealing kits to your own use of a nice, red glow to achieve good results. This is in fact why I started out with my experiments. I was simply expecting to pin down the proper temperature to use, not to turn the whole mechanistic theory to bunk.
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The following is from Starline's website, and considered flat out wrong by many shooters.
How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?
1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.
2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)
3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far.
How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?
1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.
2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)
3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far.
