Is having a #2 bolthead installed and headspaced correctly a sign of wear? Or did some of these rifles come from the factory with #2 and #3 boltheads? Reason I asked is that I passed on a sporter #4 Longbranch with a #2 bolthead installed. Thanks.
Another Lee-Enfield question
- Thread starter davemccarthy707
- Start date
It may have been a replacement for another bolthead because of wear, but it also could have been the original. Any size of bolthead may have been installed on a new rifle at the factory as their manufacturing tolerances couldn't ensure all rifles started out with the same size.
When things were really tight, in the middle of the war, they turned out quite a few rifles with Number 3 boltheads. Most of these were FTRd later, fitted with new bolts which would allow them to fit with a 0, 1 or 2 head.
A Number 2 head could well be original to a particular rifle.
No matter, really: it takes a LOT of rounds to bring the rifle to the next head-size, and the 3 is still available.
Despite the textbooks to the contrary, there actually WAS a 4. I owned one, once, but it got away. No pics because I was using a 122 Kodak at that time..... and no close-up attachments to fit a 3-1/2x5-1/2 camera. I SAW a 5. These extra-huge boltheads were made only for a short time and every effort was made (actually DURING the War, once production really ramped up) to remove and destroy ALL of them, leaving the standard 0, 1, 2 and 3 as the surviving sizes.... and a Good Thing, too.
Any rifle with the commercial proofmarks should have been inspected and gauged thoroughly before being sold, although I imagine a (very) few slipped out.
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A Number 2 head could well be original to a particular rifle.
No matter, really: it takes a LOT of rounds to bring the rifle to the next head-size, and the 3 is still available.
Despite the textbooks to the contrary, there actually WAS a 4. I owned one, once, but it got away. No pics because I was using a 122 Kodak at that time..... and no close-up attachments to fit a 3-1/2x5-1/2 camera. I SAW a 5. These extra-huge boltheads were made only for a short time and every effort was made (actually DURING the War, once production really ramped up) to remove and destroy ALL of them, leaving the standard 0, 1, 2 and 3 as the surviving sizes.... and a Good Thing, too.
Any rifle with the commercial proofmarks should have been inspected and gauged thoroughly before being sold, although I imagine a (very) few slipped out.
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Personally I can't see why the big issue with No3, 4 etc. boltheads. The rifle becomes unsafe because the bolt head is say, 5 or 10 or so thou longer?
From what I've read the British REME standard was based on the principle that the locking lugs in the action were worn through their hardened surface by the time a bolthead longer than 2 was required.
Doesn't make sense to me, since you can see the hardening marks on the side of the receiver sometimes and it goes back at least 3/16.
My personal theory is that they decided that overall wear and tear, in the boltway for example, would have reached a point where the rifle was not worth keeping (at least not in the 40s and 50s when they had millions) by the time a No3 bolthead was necessary for correct HS.
But of course I could be completely wrong on that.
From what I've read the British REME standard was based on the principle that the locking lugs in the action were worn through their hardened surface by the time a bolthead longer than 2 was required.
Doesn't make sense to me, since you can see the hardening marks on the side of the receiver sometimes and it goes back at least 3/16.
My personal theory is that they decided that overall wear and tear, in the boltway for example, would have reached a point where the rifle was not worth keeping (at least not in the 40s and 50s when they had millions) by the time a No3 bolthead was necessary for correct HS.
But of course I could be completely wrong on that.
Only problem is that peacetime standards and emergency wartime standards can be very, very different..... and this is what happened. At the time of Dunkirk there were only a few thousand Number 4 Rifles in existence..... and the Army was "short" of combat rifles by about 100,000 units..... and they wanted to fill in the gaps with shiny-new Number 4 Rifles rather than the SMLEs which BSA was cranking out. So more than just a bit of pressure went into the manufacturing, added to which was the fact that ALL the Number 4 plants were tooling-up, training workers AND producing rifles at the same time. It was a small miracle that they actually got anything made, much less the damfine rifles which they DID turn out.
Let's say that they really superduper needed rifles and turned out a batch with slightly short bolts..... which NEEDED a 3 bolthead. The first replacement then would be a 4, second replacement should be a 5, third replacement should be a 6..... and the Table of Spares only made provision for 4 boltheads: 0, 1, 2 and 3.
They were TRYING, partly for the sake of simplicity, to turn out rifles which would leave the factory with as close to a 0 as possible. If this occurred, the rifle-bolt could be reheaded with a 1, then a 2, then finally a 3..... by which time the body (receiver) SHOULD be approaching the limit of its safe life.
But all bets went out the window if the rifles took a 3 when they were brand-spanking new.
In order to KEEP things simple and TRY to approach that ideal situation, every rifle (almost) was FTR at some period. In the case of rifles with bolts at their limit, a special effort was made to locate and refit ALL of them to bring them back into spec. This they VERY nearly accomplished. I have been collecting and shooting these things for 50 years now and have met with only ONE of each of the "never-produced" bolthead numbers, both more than 40 years ago.
If we have problems today, we can blame them on that nice Mr. Hitler, the fellow who offered "peace for our time" and then kept on invading his neighbours.
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Let's say that they really superduper needed rifles and turned out a batch with slightly short bolts..... which NEEDED a 3 bolthead. The first replacement then would be a 4, second replacement should be a 5, third replacement should be a 6..... and the Table of Spares only made provision for 4 boltheads: 0, 1, 2 and 3.
They were TRYING, partly for the sake of simplicity, to turn out rifles which would leave the factory with as close to a 0 as possible. If this occurred, the rifle-bolt could be reheaded with a 1, then a 2, then finally a 3..... by which time the body (receiver) SHOULD be approaching the limit of its safe life.
But all bets went out the window if the rifles took a 3 when they were brand-spanking new.
In order to KEEP things simple and TRY to approach that ideal situation, every rifle (almost) was FTR at some period. In the case of rifles with bolts at their limit, a special effort was made to locate and refit ALL of them to bring them back into spec. This they VERY nearly accomplished. I have been collecting and shooting these things for 50 years now and have met with only ONE of each of the "never-produced" bolthead numbers, both more than 40 years ago.
If we have problems today, we can blame them on that nice Mr. Hitler, the fellow who offered "peace for our time" and then kept on invading his neighbours.
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I recently came across a No.4 bolt head on a 1941 Fazakerley No.4 Mk.1. Unfortunately, there is no way to find out if the rifle had the shorter bolt (the bolt is original, and the rifle was never FTRed), or started off with a 0 or 1 bolthead and is now banjaxed due to wear.
@spinecracker:
I think a non-FTR 1941 Faz with a 4 bolthead, and the headspace is okay, would be proof of what I have been saying. This rifle is the right period for the set-up/training at the factory, as well as the awful dearth of rifles which existed at that time. MOST were FTRd and given new bolts: yours was missed, as were a VERY few others.
Thanks for posting this, spinecracker. I'm just so damned tired of being called an idiot or a liar when I insist that I have seen one.
BTW, grab that rifle if it's available!
What folk miss is that there are SO many ways to get excess headspace, given that you have a factory at your disposal: short bolts, long bodies, too-deep rim recesses in chambers, wrong boltheads.
But they managed to get, or make, better than 99% of them to spec. For wartime conditions, with the technology they had (no CAD/CAM equipment, just for starters: that only came with the M-14), untrained workers, new plant, all the rest, they did a wonderful job.
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I think a non-FTR 1941 Faz with a 4 bolthead, and the headspace is okay, would be proof of what I have been saying. This rifle is the right period for the set-up/training at the factory, as well as the awful dearth of rifles which existed at that time. MOST were FTRd and given new bolts: yours was missed, as were a VERY few others.
Thanks for posting this, spinecracker. I'm just so damned tired of being called an idiot or a liar when I insist that I have seen one.
BTW, grab that rifle if it's available!
What folk miss is that there are SO many ways to get excess headspace, given that you have a factory at your disposal: short bolts, long bodies, too-deep rim recesses in chambers, wrong boltheads.
But they managed to get, or make, better than 99% of them to spec. For wartime conditions, with the technology they had (no CAD/CAM equipment, just for starters: that only came with the M-14), untrained workers, new plant, all the rest, they did a wonderful job.
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Your '43 LB could have left the factory with a 2 bolthead, but I think that would have been the limit, even at that point.
Not to worry about life of the rifle. You have that 2 to wear out, then the full range of a 3 and, if the barrel is still good after that, you can always fireform your brass and headspace on the shoulder, just like with a rimless cartrige. They couldn't do that in wartime, hence the headspace adjustment with boltheads. But we CAN do it beause we generally make our ammo for one rifle, not so that it has to work in 5 million others.
If you like the rifle, go ahead and get it. If you have it, shoot it. They last a LOOONG time, friend! I'm shooting a 1907, a pair of 1918s and a 1943: ALL made before I was even born...... and I'm old enough that the Gummint sends me a cheque every month just for not dying on them!
Most important point of all: have fun!
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Not to worry about life of the rifle. You have that 2 to wear out, then the full range of a 3 and, if the barrel is still good after that, you can always fireform your brass and headspace on the shoulder, just like with a rimless cartrige. They couldn't do that in wartime, hence the headspace adjustment with boltheads. But we CAN do it beause we generally make our ammo for one rifle, not so that it has to work in 5 million others.
If you like the rifle, go ahead and get it. If you have it, shoot it. They last a LOOONG time, friend! I'm shooting a 1907, a pair of 1918s and a 1943: ALL made before I was even born...... and I'm old enough that the Gummint sends me a cheque every month just for not dying on them!
Most important point of all: have fun!
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@Smellie - glad to help, and I had my suspicions regarding shortcuts during wartime. The other aspect of bolt heads is that, although there are specifications for length, you can find bolt heads out of spec quite easily (out of 4 I recently measured, not one was within the spec for the number - sheesh!). A person on another forum (hi, Alan 
) did a survey of No.4 bolt head lengths and found quite a disparity in lengths.
How rare are non-messed-with Fazakerley 1941 No.4 Mk.1s? I have to see if I can swing the cash...
) did a survey of No.4 bolt head lengths and found quite a disparity in lengths.How rare are non-messed-with Fazakerley 1941 No.4 Mk.1s? I have to see if I can swing the cash...
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Not to talk despairingly about Alan's efforts "BUT" it doesn't do ANY good to measure USED bolt heads for length, anymore than than measuring used tires and tread depth. You want to know how long the bolt head was when it was new and not after years of wear. (and how much tread a new tire has to know "HOW MUCH you have later.
Second, after proof testing with an oiled proof test cartridge the Enfield rifle was checked with a .067 headspace gauge. If the bolt closed on the .067 gauge the rifle failed proof testing due to excessive lug setback. What is important to understand is bolt thrust causes increases in headspace so shooting with a wet or oily chamber can and does increase headspace twice as fact as a dry chamber.
I also have three headspace gauges for the Enfield rifle and the .067 gauge tells me more about the Enfield rifle than any other gauge, or how much more wear does the rifle have since proofing.
So smellie if you want to see headspace grow on your Enfield rifles try a little water or oil in your chamber, it simulates combat conditions and is why even today military NATO proof testing requires oiled proof cartridges.
Second, after proof testing with an oiled proof test cartridge the Enfield rifle was checked with a .067 headspace gauge. If the bolt closed on the .067 gauge the rifle failed proof testing due to excessive lug setback. What is important to understand is bolt thrust causes increases in headspace so shooting with a wet or oily chamber can and does increase headspace twice as fact as a dry chamber.
I also have three headspace gauges for the Enfield rifle and the .067 gauge tells me more about the Enfield rifle than any other gauge, or how much more wear does the rifle have since proofing.
So smellie if you want to see headspace grow on your Enfield rifles try a little water or oil in your chamber, it simulates combat conditions and is why even today military NATO proof testing requires oiled proof cartridges.
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