I recently bought two of the Carl Gustav guns based on the M96 actions. Both are from the same Canadian dealer. I haven’t fired either but both appear to be in great shape although one MAY have a headspace issue. All of that said I am not complaining; I’m merely curious about whether others buying these old guns have had any issues not pointed out in the descriptions or discovered later? Just a nosy guy I guess.
Another Swede Question
- Thread starter RonW
- Start date
Generally speaking they are good quality. Even the 95 actions are strong enough for any sane load.Read a piece onSwedish model 95 destructive lab tests recently. No deformation of the actions was observed with overloads until 73,000 cup and complete failure occurred at over 85,000 cupin all samples. That's a Very strong action.
RonW what leads you to believe one of the Swedes might have a HS issue .? RJ
That one is a CG63 fitted with scope mount and somewhat sporterized by removing the top piece, barrel band and a bit of shaping - none of which applies to your question of course. I removed the firing pin/cocking assembly. The bolt closed on a new case without any resistance. I haven’t tried the masking tape process and I haven’t ordered a no go gauge yet so right now it is all guessing. If the rain ever stops here I will soon have a fired case to measure.
The bolt should close on a new case without resistance.
I checked a lot of M96 and M38 rifles - and every one would accept a SAAMI NO GO. The only Scandinavian 6.5x55 rifle I checked that would not accept a SAAMI NO GO was a Danish M98 target conversion.
A CIP gauge might be more relevant.
Are North American and European 6.5x55 cases made to the same dimensional specs?
I checked a lot of M96 and M38 rifles - and every one would accept a SAAMI NO GO. The only Scandinavian 6.5x55 rifle I checked that would not accept a SAAMI NO GO was a Danish M98 target conversion.
A CIP gauge might be more relevant.
Are North American and European 6.5x55 cases made to the same dimensional specs?
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I bought several from a dealer with the intent to sell them at gun shows. One Husqvarna 98 action in 30-06 had the scope base holes drilled slightly off, in other words the two sets of holes aren't in a straight line. I put a scope on it and took it out to sight it in for a customer at home. Scope wouldn't adjust enough. Took it back home and found out why. 
The way the stock is made, it is nearly impossible to use the iron sights, with the comb(?) being way too high. Fire that old girl with a full load 30-06 and you will have a bruised cheek. It is a nice old commercial Husqvarna, decent wood, good bore. I might see what my buddy Deaner says about maybe trimming the top of the stock down so it can be used with open sights. There are two holes drilled on the rh side of the receiver for a peep sight. That may be an answer.
The way the stock is made, it is nearly impossible to use the iron sights, with the comb(?) being way too high. Fire that old girl with a full load 30-06 and you will have a bruised cheek. It is a nice old commercial Husqvarna, decent wood, good bore. I might see what my buddy Deaner says about maybe trimming the top of the stock down so it can be used with open sights. There are two holes drilled on the rh side of the receiver for a peep sight. That may be an answer.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Before ordering any gauge, might want to read up what they are - They come in sets of three gauges - GO, NOGO and FIELD. SAAMI GO corresponds to SAAMI MINIMUM, SAAMI FIELD corresponds to SAAMI MAXIMUM - I am pretty sure that NOGO is an invention by gauge maker companies - so far, I have found no reference on SAAMI documents what it is - NOGO are often 0.003" or 0.004" longer than GO - whereas SAAMI often specifies 0.008" or 0.010" difference between Minimum and Maximum chamber lengths. Hence, NOGO gauges are used when installing a new chamber or new pre-chambered barrel - so far as I can figure out from Forster website, the NOGO is their recommended maximum length for a new installation - allows (usually) several thousandths wear to faces of bolt lugs and receiver seats - before the headspace has reached FIELD / Maximum dimension. As I read it, many gunsmiths and accuracy buffs desire to chamber much closer to GO length, rather than to FIELD length - the NOGO gauge helps them do that. SAAMI and C.I.P. concerned whether it is safe or reliable to fire - hence all SAAMI compliant ammo is "safe" to fire in any SAAMI compliant chamber - that is, "safe to fire" in any chamber between GO and FIELD length. I can not find in SAAMI documents where NOGO fits in that scheme.
There is perhaps some merit to the notion that, if you are using SAAMI compliant ammo - what you buy in most stores in North America - that you probably want your chamber to be between Minimum and Maximum SAAMI prescribed lengths. That is not necessarily the same for stuff made under C.I.P. rules, nor stuff made for decades by many militaries.
Even using the gauges is a mystery to some - is not a contest of strength to see if you can force the bolt to close - is about perhaps finger tip pressure to try to feel if the gauge touches or not - you will have hold of bolt handle - gauge is in the chamber ahead of bolt face - you are trying to determine if there is contact before the bolt handle is all the way down.
SAAMI came into existence circa 1920's - Swede armoury had been making 6.5x55 for 30 (?) years by then. And SAAMI definition of acceptable lengths is different than Swede Armoury definition - go figure. Most WWII armies were using cartridges they had designed in 1890's, early 1900's - well before SAAMI existed. Those militaries had their own standards about what was "good enough" for their soldiers to use - so, for example, Britain, Canada and Australia all used 303 British cartridge - but each army had their own standards for their rifles chambers - and that may have been a thousandth or two different, one to the other, or was changed depending on how the war and supply lines were going - so is some countries that had "longer" FIELD gauges at times, than others, and longer than SAAMI specifies - I am not sure any military actually cared what SAAMI had to say - was for civilian production, not for the militaries of the time.
I no longer buy "sets" of gauges - but I do have a GO, NOGO and FIELD set for 30-06, and GO and NOGO for 308 Win / 7.62 NATO. I just buy GO gauges - 6.5x55, 7x57 Mauser, 22 Long Rifle, etc. - I got inexpensive feeler gauge (at NAPA or Canadian Tire ?) and cut little circles slightly smaller than rim of the GO gauge - I use a finger tip of grease as glue - I think if I use too much it just squishes out - so using a GO gauge and a dozen varying thicknesses of feeler gauge "shims" of known thicknesses - so does it close on "GO" - yes or no - that means it is "long enough", then how much thickness of metal shim can be used and still closed (not touch) - tells me if it is "too long" - is up to me how many thousandths longer than GO that I want to go.
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Theoretically, perhaps. In practice, there are differences. Rim size is the most obvious. - dan
Thanks for the detailed reply Potashminer. This is my first scientific approach to actually testing headspace. Before it was more like if the head stays on the case then it’s all good. I’ll admit I’ve found the information on the gauges confusing. After reading up on them I came to the conclusion that FIELD meant NOT SAFE. The other two left me wondering until I picked up a tidbit that said if in doubt order the NO GO. However I probably missed the context that the NO GO was what you would use when checking a new build. I think I’ll just fire it remotely on the sled and see how things measure up. BTW I’m so impressed with the two guns that I bought and the quick service from the vendor that unless this gun blows up I think I’ll order an 8 x 57 just for fun.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Do not mis-apprehend that correct headspace prevents rifle from "blow-up" - load up a case with shotgun or pistol powder, and you will most assuredly "blow up" a perfectly head-spaced rifle. From what I read - in early days - circa 1900 - was not uncommon to have mismatch between someone's cartridge and someone else's chamber - typical result was that the case burst - sending gases and pieces of primer and case in about every direction - including back at the shooter. I believe adequate fit of case to chamber resolves some of that. So does adequate design of case and rifle. So does better alloys of brass. So does some powders and some primers. And so on. "Headspace" is but one of myriad of considerations - is not a magic "fix everything".
As far as "FIELD", and what that means - was what I read that military field armourers would do - if the bolt closed on the prescribed FIELD gauge - that rifle had chamber that was too large (too long) for service - and that rifle was withdrawn from service for repair or discard. As mentioned, the exact dimension of that FIELD gauge may have been different from one army to another, and from one year to another year - depending what "risk" level that the authorities thought was okay for their soldiers to use - I would expect that longer head space results in more burst cases, or more misfires - neither which are great if you are trying to field a fighting force - 10,000 or 100,000 rifles firing 5 or 10 or 15 rounds per minute - dependably. Is not an absolute "safe"/ "not safe" distinction. The rifle would likely have been in use two minutes or two days before the headspace was checked.
There is a 9.3x57 chambered barrel here, that I installed onto another receiver - and could not find ANY gauges, to buy, for that job. I still do not know if 9.3x57 uses same headspace gauges as 8x57, or not. I have 7x57 and 8x57 - they are not the same - no reason to think that 9.3 x57 would be the same to either? Could not find any factory ammo for it either - so realized the only ammo it would see is what got loaded here - so I installed it so that chamber matches to the Full Length sized brass that comes out of this 9.3x57 sizing die, with a 0.002 shim between shell holder and die. I do not know or care if my product is to SAAMI standard or not - but the cases properly fit to that chamber (I think) - if I back off that sizing die a smidgeon from tight on shim on shell holder, that brass case won't chamber - so I think I got it quite close. I did six brass that fit and 6 brass that are too long - is not the same as using steel gauges, but was best that I could come up with, using what was here.
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Well - Headspace is not a "black and white" issue. Limits are arbitrarily chosen to create a standard. Being one thou under the limit is not much different than being one thou over the limit. BTW - Swedish mausers have a very good gas handling design, compared to the earlier Mausers such as the 93 and 95 actions. OP - Chances are you are going to start reloading if you get serious about the 6.5 x 55. Then headspace becomes a very minor consideration as you can/will size the brass to fit the chamber.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Your bolded part - I agree there was an improvement over previous, if anything was changed, although much was not changed, but even Paul Mauser did not think it was "good" - can see that in subsequent design of his, for Mauser 98, and later patents that he did about "safety breeching" - so, he might not have been satisfied with the common 98 system. I just do not hear about burst cases any more - not like I read that they were experiencing 120 years ago - is a lot that was changed. I can not tell difference from 1894 Swede receiver and 1896 Swede receiver - without looking up serial numbers - so I presume that "design" was set perhaps early 1890's?
Jonnyofalltrades
Regular
- Location
- North-central Saskatchewan
This reminds me of a funny story from many years ago. I came across a horribly "bubba'd" M96 that was beyond helping. I decided to blow it up.
A compressed load of green dot didn't seem like it would be enough, so I ran a 5/16" tap in the muzzle and put a bolt in it.
Tripped the trigger with a long string, from behind a tree. The (muzzle)bolt was gone, and the muzzle looked like a blunderbuss, but the stupid thing held, and I was able to drive the case back out.
Never did get it to blow. Maybe Bullseye next time?
Absolutely NOT advocating that sort of stupidity.
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