antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
Antique 45acp question ??
- Thread starter lone ranger
- Start date
I'll chime in because I've done a BOATLOAD of research about antiques, especially in the 45 calibers. I have two (one well be sold shortly....I only end up using one anyways) and they are both in original 455 Webley. The ammo was easy to find and cost only slightly more than 45 colt ammo cost (50 per box of 50 for 455 and 45 per box of colt). So really why wouldn't you just get the original, rich you know likely has only ever fired rounds creating the proper pressures.
Yes, lots of Webley revolvers hand fired hard ball 45acp, but as has been said, I personally wouldn't risk buying one because damage to the frame has likely been fine, even if only minor damage. I don't like the idea of spending over a grand on a gun, loading down the cartridge for it, only to find it cracks or stretches anyways because damage was done years ago.
Can you buy a modified gun and have it work for a long time? Sure lots of guys do. But do they break sooner? They are more likely to, but certainly not a guarantee. To each his own but you won't catch me buying a modified one I don't think (unless I know who modified it and what it's shot before). That and I have 250 cases for 455 Webley so I don't really think I'll change what I'm shooting as far as antique pistols go
Yes, lots of Webley revolvers hand fired hard ball 45acp, but as has been said, I personally wouldn't risk buying one because damage to the frame has likely been fine, even if only minor damage. I don't like the idea of spending over a grand on a gun, loading down the cartridge for it, only to find it cracks or stretches anyways because damage was done years ago.
Can you buy a modified gun and have it work for a long time? Sure lots of guys do. But do they break sooner? They are more likely to, but certainly not a guarantee. To each his own but you won't catch me buying a modified one I don't think (unless I know who modified it and what it's shot before). That and I have 250 cases for 455 Webley so I don't really think I'll change what I'm shooting as far as antique pistols go
I'll never understand why people modify perfectly good Webleys. If one wants a .45 ACP revolver, buy an M1917 or a Model 25 that were actually designed for .45 ACP and constructed of modern steels. Or, if one just wants something in .45 ACP, buy a 1911, especially with Norincos costing $325 new and S.A.M.s costing $395 new, a fraction of what a Webley costs.
Because they don't go to ranges. Pretty much that simple. If you can point me towards a .45acp designed pistol that I can take in the woods without so much as a PAL I'm interested.
I recognize that I'm being a bit abrasive, but it comes down to that. I don't particularly like ranges, don't like how much they cost, and spend most of my time in beautiful secluded places that are perfect for target shooting. It's further to go to a range than just out my door and into the woods. I also absolutely refuse to break the law in any way, like all good gun owners, so I don't take my restricted's anywhere but the range.
Then why not consider the Just Right Carbine in .45 ACP?
Aside from the physical risks of converting any revolver to .45 ACP, there's also the potential legal world of hurt you could be stepping into by rechambering an antique to a modern calibre.
Aside from the physical risks of converting any revolver to .45 ACP, there's also the potential legal world of hurt you could be stepping into by rechambering an antique to a modern calibre.
burnt_servo
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- right in the middle of b.c.
there is no law stating that a antique can not be rechambered into something modern , just a list of rounds that a antique can not be chambered in .
It still possible to be charged by an unknowledgeable officer and forced into punishment by process.
And there are rumours of the RCMP trying to change to Criminal Code to make it illegal to rechamber an antique to a modern cartridge without going through some process.
And there are rumours of the RCMP trying to change to Criminal Code to make it illegal to rechamber an antique to a modern cartridge without going through some process.
While the first point is valid, more often than not you will be about to get the office to call in to goods super and get it figured out. Or the changes would be dropped long before court. You just have to make sure that you cannot chamber one of the prohibited calibers as well (I.e. if you wanted to shoot 45acp or 45 auto rim but to much was shaved off and there was no rim in the chamber to headspace off of, and the cylinder was long enough, you may be able too chamber long colt in which case it is illegal. Also you should be smart enough, as an antique handgun owner, to carry around proof that your gun is old enough to be an antique, as well as a copy of the law, and if you want to be real careful, an empty or dummy round of the prohibited cartridges that are of the same caliber as your gun (I.e. if you have a 455 converted to 45acp then carry a dummy 45 long colt round do that you can show without a doubt that you cannot chamber it.
Regarding the second point, we never know what will happen, but if you were to get an antique letter for your gun then you would have quite the leg to stand on if they did change the law and didn't make it very public. No ignorance is not an excuse but if they change it without telling people no REASONABLE person could expect or be expected to know about the change. Yes it would be a hassle but you would likely get off. But either way you would end up with a gun that has virtually no value compared to one that is either still chambered in an antique cartridge or that is originally in an antique cartridge. I personally don't think they will make 45acp one of the no go rounds but you never know they follow logic so it could happen easily
burnt_servo
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- right in the middle of b.c.
funny thing , in another thread he was recommending a guy should buy a antique chambered in 45 colt .......
yet he is so concerned about what might happen to a person legally if the police catch them with a antique chambered in a modern round .
which tells me he knows nothing about the antique laws or the firearms act .
yet he is so concerned about what might happen to a person legally if the police catch them with a antique chambered in a modern round .
which tells me he knows nothing about the antique laws or the firearms act .
I would honestly believe that it would be next to impossible to buy an antique that is chambered in 45lc.... it would be a restricted or prohibited firearm and most people who actually own antiques that get used are people who know this part of the act very well, and their knowledge of this part of the act is why they own the gun. They know exactly what they can use as am antique and what they cannot. It is a surprisingly easy to understand and very clear part of the act. It lays out exactly what does and does not qualify. Not saying it makes ant sense at all from a logic perspective only that it is a very simple power of the law to stay on the legal side of without much opportunity to get confused our in trouble.
Basically for handguns, it's old enough? Good, if it is rimfire, is it 22 caliber? No, you're good, yes you're not good and it would be restricted. If it is centre fire, is it chambered in, or will it allow to be chambered with a reasonable chance of actually firing, a caliber on the no go list in the act? No, if it's the idea here is, I know for example that some guns modified to fire 45acp will actually allow a 45LC round to chamber, though with some guns the cylinder won't rotate, though it will allow the gun ti close and lock. Even though the gun will not operate properly, it would be my suggestion that it not be risked to assume it is an antique, since a judge could very easily day that the gun will fire a no go round regardless of
If the gun will allow normal operation. On my opinion, that gun has been ruined as far as antique status goes Anne should be registered or destroyed immediately to prevent someone from risking charges.
Basically for handguns, it's old enough? Good, if it is rimfire, is it 22 caliber? No, you're good, yes you're not good and it would be restricted. If it is centre fire, is it chambered in, or will it allow to be chambered with a reasonable chance of actually firing, a caliber on the no go list in the act? No, if it's the idea here is, I know for example that some guns modified to fire 45acp will actually allow a 45LC round to chamber, though with some guns the cylinder won't rotate, though it will allow the gun ti close and lock. Even though the gun will not operate properly, it would be my suggestion that it not be risked to assume it is an antique, since a judge could very easily day that the gun will fire a no go round regardless of
If the gun will allow normal operation. On my opinion, that gun has been ruined as far as antique status goes Anne should be registered or destroyed immediately to prevent someone from risking charges.
burnt_servo
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- right in the middle of b.c.
I challenge you to name one gun that this is possible in .....
seriously .
if the chamber has been cut for 45acp , 45 colt may fit about 1/2 way in , but it will stop and go no further .
also , how many antiques out there have a cylinder long enough to fit a 45 colt round ?
unless you have something to back up what your saying , it is nothing but ignorant hearsay based on lack of knowledge . and this does a disservice to all of us
Webley and Pryse No. 4, for one. It will easily chamber a 45lc round, and when the cylinder has been shaved to fit moon clips, it is very, very close to allowing the frame to close with the 45LC in the cylinder. If there is excessive wear in the pivot or if there has been a little too much material removed, then you can generally close it, though most often it will not rotate easily as there is a hump that gets in the way. If it closed, however, one could #### the gun, open it, chamber a round, close it on that round, and pull the trigger, and it would certainly fire.
Remember, a gun that has been cut for 45acp will generally headspace off the moon clips and not the lip of the cartridge, so you don't always have a ledge inside that would stop a longer cartridge from going in.
So thanks for the comments about ignorance and hearsay, but it is you, sir, who is speaking with ignorance. Yes, not many will allow it to work, but I know of that one, and then also I suspect that any colt that was chambered in 455 colt/eley (which is the same as 455 Webley), which while rare, exist, would easily chamber 45 LC if the cylinder was shaved enough. Though I cannot say for sure that they do not have a section at the front of the cylinder that is smaller, it is also very possible that the person who does the shaving of the cylinder would ream it out to allow the lightly longer 45acp case to fit.... The mkii Webley case is only about .750" long overall while a 45acp case is just under 0.85" from the rim to the end of the case. Someone who isn't interested in headspacing off of the taper crimp may not bother reaming it out perfect and could easily just ream the whole cylinder out.....
Game set match....please don't be rude if you don't know everything, and since no one knows everything, don't be rude. Don't call me ignorant or tell me I'm doing a disservice when you have no idea.
I in fact just about purchased a Webley and Pryse that was modified and would chamber a 45LC case but nut rotate, and this is how I know, and this is how I know it would still be restricted as it could be used to fire that cartridge.
This is a very confuseing topic about 45 colt yes or no . Heres some info i have learned from handleing alot of diffrent antique handguns just trying to shine some light on the subject.
There are a few antique guns that can chamber cycle and shoot 45 LC altered and unaltered Theses are guns that were never original chambered in 45 LC.
a 455 chamber is not deep or long enough to do that however but a 455/476 cal chamberd gun can chamber a full sized 45 colt. if it can cycle the round is another mater.
The only guns ive seen this in is the webley WG armys 455/476 and some cycle and chamber 45 colt unaltered but because the guns were never made in 45 LC if that cartridge just happens to cycle in your gun your Ok as far as antique status goes same with the webley no 4 pryse.
But if your gun is altered to alow a 45 colt to fit by the cylinder being shaved or other forms of altering then its not OK as a antique.
Most WGs wont cycle the 45 colt (rims to thick) but some do alot of guys shoot 45 schofield in theses guns not 45 Colt as trying to explain what i just typed to a CO or Police Officer they would just look at you and say ya right lolooking at a fired 45 colt case in the chamber cant say id blame them its very confuseing
But thats the way the rules on theses guns are, only a very few exist that will chamber and shoot a 45 colt without being altered to do so ive never seen a webley No 4 that would cycle a 45 colt unless it was altered to do so only WGs.
Ive seen a few 455/476 WG armys that let the 45 colt cycle that were not altered but like i said alot will not cycle the 45 LC
And remember a 450 and a 455 chamber is to short even for a 45 schofield only the original 476 chambers will chamber a 45 colt.
If that round cycles or not is another mater can be affected by wear and looseness.
Not saying i know everything but ive handled a few WGs and other guns so just going off my expreience.
Another gun that has a longer cylinder is the COLT DA 1878 in 476 cal. a 476 cal chamber is long enough for 45 colt to chamber, the question is is there enough head space to alow the rim of the thicker rimed 45 colt to cycle past the recoil sheild.
Alot wont let this happen some will.
I think its best to use 45 schofield in guns that cycle 45 colt its just easyer to explain and 45 sch is not on the stupid list.
Just a side note if you have a gun that is 455/476 and it cycles 45 colt and you dont want it to anymore you can add some material to the front face of the cylinder bushing, pushing the cylinder back a few tho can stop the 45 case from cycleing all the way around. Yes it opens up the barrel cylinder gap abit but alot of antique handguns had bigger cylinder to barrel gaps than guns today anyway.,,,
There are a few antique guns that can chamber cycle and shoot 45 LC altered and unaltered Theses are guns that were never original chambered in 45 LC.
a 455 chamber is not deep or long enough to do that however but a 455/476 cal chamberd gun can chamber a full sized 45 colt. if it can cycle the round is another mater.
The only guns ive seen this in is the webley WG armys 455/476 and some cycle and chamber 45 colt unaltered but because the guns were never made in 45 LC if that cartridge just happens to cycle in your gun your Ok as far as antique status goes same with the webley no 4 pryse.
But if your gun is altered to alow a 45 colt to fit by the cylinder being shaved or other forms of altering then its not OK as a antique.
Most WGs wont cycle the 45 colt (rims to thick) but some do alot of guys shoot 45 schofield in theses guns not 45 Colt as trying to explain what i just typed to a CO or Police Officer they would just look at you and say ya right lolooking at a fired 45 colt case in the chamber cant say id blame them its very confuseing
But thats the way the rules on theses guns are, only a very few exist that will chamber and shoot a 45 colt without being altered to do so ive never seen a webley No 4 that would cycle a 45 colt unless it was altered to do so only WGs.
Ive seen a few 455/476 WG armys that let the 45 colt cycle that were not altered but like i said alot will not cycle the 45 LC
And remember a 450 and a 455 chamber is to short even for a 45 schofield only the original 476 chambers will chamber a 45 colt.
If that round cycles or not is another mater can be affected by wear and looseness.
Not saying i know everything but ive handled a few WGs and other guns so just going off my expreience.
Another gun that has a longer cylinder is the COLT DA 1878 in 476 cal. a 476 cal chamber is long enough for 45 colt to chamber, the question is is there enough head space to alow the rim of the thicker rimed 45 colt to cycle past the recoil sheild.
Alot wont let this happen some will.
I think its best to use 45 schofield in guns that cycle 45 colt its just easyer to explain and 45 sch is not on the stupid list.
Just a side note if you have a gun that is 455/476 and it cycles 45 colt and you dont want it to anymore you can add some material to the front face of the cylinder bushing, pushing the cylinder back a few tho can stop the 45 case from cycleing all the way around. Yes it opens up the barrel cylinder gap abit but alot of antique handguns had bigger cylinder to barrel gaps than guns today anyway.,,,
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Well ideally a 45acp would be better. You can buy ammo cheap and in a pinch, it is more powerful, you can reload it without trying ti find bullets that are right for it, But having said that, if it's an antique then it likely wouldn't be able to (or at kay advisable) fire jacketed modern 45acp anyways. At that point all of the benefits go out the window. Realistically, unless the laws change somehow, the only handgun you are carrying in the bush and shooting in the bush is going to be lead bullets out of a revolver....unless you get into cap and ball or muzzle loaders.....
