Any interest in antique status French 11x59mmR Model 1874 Gras rifles in Canada?

[mkrnel]

Got hold of one of these antique status French rifles and don't know what to do with her, keep or sell, do people here think they are any good? It seems very well built and rather strong. All I could find on the net is that they were in use up till WW2 and that they were accurate and much liked by the Greeks and could be loaded to the same level as a .45-70 gun from the same period. I guess I could always use her as a hunting rifle.

She is in excellent condition with a like new bore, probably has never been shot! here are some pics -

 

[vagrantviking]

Neat gun to have found and such great condition!
I know I would be looking into finding or making some shells to give it a try.

 

[mkrnel]

Apparently they are easy to make up from .348 Win brass and .430 lead bullets, the same that the .44 Special, Magnum and .444 Marlin use!

 

[Boolitcaster]

That rifle is in amazing condition.
I have made ammunition for that caliber from 348 brass and it was quite a simple procedure.

 

[polaris]

That's agreat looking rifle.
They were rechambered for 8mm Lebel at the end of the 19th century.

If you ever decide to sell, give ne a shout.
Rifles from this period are my favourits.

 

[Mean Steak]

Absolutely amazing condition, very nice find. I am jealous

 

[Tyockell18]

Wow, the condition is unreal, a keeper for sure.

 

[mkrnel]

This is what the 11x59mmR Gras round looks like -

It is the middle round just below the 11mm Mauser and above the 11mm Spanish Reformado.

A interesting fact I found online was that it was used by the French, American and British during WW1 in the Vickers Heavy Machine Gun for anti aircraft, balloon and zeppelin use, the first aircraft HMG in fact!

​

 

[drslav]

beautiful gun indeed/.i would make some ammo and shoot it. Friend of mine picked something very similar to this but converted into a shotgun. Interestingly it had belgian markings on it.

 

[mkrnel]

Here are 2 videos I found online about these rifles -

 

[Steyr1]

In #1, They're shooting toward a building ??

 

[JP]

GRAS série X

Les armes de théorie série X, faites avec des pièces rebutées ne portent pas l'estampille de la Manufacture ni les poinçons du Directeur et du Contrôleur Principal. Elles sont destinées à l'instruction de base des troupes. En principe, on ne tire pas avec ces armes.

Les Gras scolaires des série U, V et X étaient fabriqués sur une base Chassepots transformés.

Leur poids était diminué en réduisant les dimensions du fusil et celles des garnitures. Pas de tenon de baïonnette. Hausse modèle 1866 réduite et graduée de 10 à 40 mètres. Chambre courte ne pouvant recevoir que des étuis raccourcis de 10 mm chargés comme les cartouches de tir réduit.

Source : LES ARMES À FEU DE L'ARMÉE FRANÇAISE 1860 À 1940 par le Colonel Jean Martin, Crepin-Leblond éditeur."



The above French text describes the x numbered series rifles has training rifles made up of inferior or rejected parts and are not meant to be fired. Explains the condition and the lack of arsenal markings on the receiver. Of no interest for Shooters, but still a good piece for advanced French Arms collectors.

 

[snurge]

Look for a hole drilled thru the bottom of the chamber

 

[green]

Use fire formed 348 Winch brass and .446" bullets as used in 11mm Mauser.
The Gras 11mm rifle was still in use by the French Air Force in 1940 and fresh ammo for the rifle was still being made at that date. A new 11mm dummy ctg was developed for the Gras as late as 1930.

 

[Pete04]

I have a MLE 1874 with the M 80 upgrade (gas re-direction) and a M14 upgrade which I believe is the barrel/chamber swapped out for 8mm Lebel cartridge.
It shoots very high at 100m.

 

[mkrnel]

Look for a hole drilled thru the bottom of the chamber

Chamber is perfect, no holes drilled through it!

 

[mkrnel]

GRAS série X

Les armes de théorie série X, faites avec des pièces rebutées ne portent pas l'estampille de la Manufacture ni les poinçons du Directeur et du Contrôleur Principal. Elles sont destinées à l'instruction de base des troupes. En principe, on ne tire pas avec ces armes.

Les Gras scolaires des série U, V et X étaient fabriqués sur une base Chassepots transformés.

Leur poids était diminué en réduisant les dimensions du fusil et celles des garnitures. Pas de tenon de baïonnette. Hausse modèle 1866 réduite et graduée de 10 à 40 mètres. Chambre courte ne pouvant recevoir que des étuis raccourcis de 10 mm chargés comme les cartouches de tir réduit.

Source : LES ARMES À FEU DE L'ARMÉE FRANÇAISE 1860 À 1940 par le Colonel Jean Martin, Crepin-Leblond éditeur."



The above French text describes the x numbered series rifles has training rifles made up of inferior or rejected parts and are not meant to be fired. Explains the condition and the lack of arsenal markings on the receiver. Of no interest for Shooters, but still a good piece for advanced French Arms collectors.

Nice story, but I hardly think that the Montreal Papal Zouaves would buy reject unusable rifles, this rifle was special ordered from France by the Montreal Papal Zouaves for their militia use, that is why it is marked 1st. Zouaves on the buttplate.

Here are some pictures of them -

Between February 1868 and September 1870, 7 contingents totalling 507 Canadians enrolled in the papal army (whose soldiers were known as Papal Zouaves) to help defend Rome from the Italian troops who wanted to bring about Italian unification. The last contingent of 114 recruits left too late and had to turn back, for Rome surrendered on September 20.
Most of the Canadian Zouaves were educated young men recruited in Québec. The organizational committee set up by Bishop IgnaceBOURGET of Montréal had recruited them for their moral qualities, because the main goal was to create an elite able to oppose the propagation within Québec of liberal ideas formally condemned by the pope. For this reason, care was also taken to ensure that every parish provided volunteers and financial support. Freedom of speech and conscience, popular sovereignty and the separation of church from state - such were the grand ideals that the Zouaves were to combat. Upon their return from Rome, they formed an association whose goal was to promote the cause they had defended by arms. At the end of the century, with the Catholic Church becoming reconciled with the modern world, the Zouaves' association adapted its objectives to the concerns of CATHOLIC ACTION groups. The association still exists, but its influence is very limited.

In Quebec, the Zouave connection is well known. The Quebec Zouaves used many types of rifles over their long history. The most common were the Gras 1874, the Swiss Vertelli 1869/71, the US Remington Rolling in 50-70 (Most of these assorted rifles were supposed to have been purchased from Bannerman's of New York, a large Surplus dealer active up to the late 1950's.) One of the last local units in Coaticook, QC even used some Lee-Enfield No.1 MKIII* in the early 1960's. A side note, the Gras 1874 is a fairly rare rifle, since most of the one left in French Service were destroyed during the Nazis Occupation after the French defeat of 1940.

The Quebec Papal Zouaves came to be during the Italian uprising by Garibaldi, the Papal Lands were under attack and two Regiments were raised and were sent over to Italy to defend the Pope from the Revolutionnary Forces. The Regiments were armed with French Army rifle-muskets and participated in a number of Battles. After the War and the return of the Zouave Regiments to Quebec, it was decided that the Zouaves should be maintained across the Province in every Parish in case the Pope needed them again. Naturally, it became more a Social Organisation used mostly in Parade and Religious celebrations. It was for a time a very large organisation with training camps in the Summer, rivaling the Canadian Militia. The mouvement died out in the 1960's, but I know of at least one group still operating in Valleyfield, QC comprised of elderly Gentlemen working as Ushers in the local church at Sunday Services. A small Village near Lac Megantic, QC was founded by some returning Veterans of the Zouaves Regiments and it was named Piopolis (City of the Pope in honour of Pope Pius IX) to celebrate their Service to the Pope in his time of need. In a way, the Zouaves were probably the first 0rganised Canadians Troops to serve in Foreign Overseas War, before that most Canadians served or volontered on an Individual basis (Peninsular Campaign War of 1812 or US Civil War).

Photo of a Quebec Zouave Uniform circa 1950, Gras Model 1874 bayonet can be seen on the snake belt.

 

[dingus]

If its anything like there revolvers it must be well made, It looks very well made to me. The French 1892 and 1873 handguns are so well made they were both used in the first and second WWs yet were made pre 1898.

 

[polaris]

Great pictures Thank you for posting.

The last picture seems to be from the "Cote de la Montagne" in Quebec City.

 

[JP]

Actually, I wrote the lower text you are quoting above and the Zouave Uniform pictured above use to be from my collection. The Quebec Zouaves Organisation on Quebec soil actually used Gras Model 1874/80/14 rifles and they were not special ordered by the Pope. The rifles were bought on the surplus market probably from Bannerman's along with some Swiss Veterlli 1869/71 and some Remington Rolling Block rifles late of the New York National Guards. The X numbered rifles are not a story, but fact and the quote comes from a well respected firearms author (LES ARMES À FEU DE L'ARMÉE FRANÇAISE 1860 À 1940 par le Colonel Jean Martin, Crepin-Leblond éditeur."). No idea where that reference to a hole in the receiver comes from ?





French rifle that was issued to the Quebec Papal Zouaves in Italy.