Any Starr revolver owners here?

[Killer Kanuck]

Just wondering who here has and/or shoots a Starr revolver, either single or double. I made a purchase last night and I'm trying to decide if it's good, bad, or otherwise
I bought a Starr 1858 Double Action Army. It has inspectors marks on the gun itself and on the grips, no pits at all, and what appears to be a very old refinishing. What makes it a little odd is it's a cartridge conversion to 44 Colt.
I wanted a Starr ever since I realized that's the gun Eastwood carried in Unforgiven, and when I read up on them some and saw that period conversions to 44 Colt were sometimes done, well, something made me want one more. Don't know why, just wanted one. But then again, what's reason got to do with gun collecting anyway.

Anybody familiar with these conversions?

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

I believe some of these guns were converted to .46 cal.
I saw one at a local gun show some years ago, the dealer that had it I know very well, he might be someone to talk to.

Post Civil War, many of these guns ended up in Europe, perhaps in Belgium, and may have found their way to the Crimea for use in that conflict.

I have an unconverted Starr Double Action Army which is shown in one of my posts below.

David

 

[Killer Kanuck]

I've seen a few online that were converted to what I'm told was the 44 Montenegrin cartridge - very close to 45 Colt, and with 5 shot cylinders. The few I've seen had Belgian proof marks on the cylinder.

 

[drm3m]

From what I understand Clint Eastwood is an avid gun collector,.. what other director/lead actor would choose a Starr DA Army and a Spencer carbine in a film like Unforgiven.

I think there was also a Henry Rifle used in that film.

David

 

[Killer Kanuck]

Starr, Spencer, and a Schofield were the 3 with the most screen time. As opposed to the standard SAA and Winchester.
On a side note - every time I watch Bonanza now, the 1892s (or 1894s - don't see them close enough to tell) without the forestocks, done up to look like Henrys, bug me.

David - what's the action like on the Starr DA? From what I understand it's not really a true DA - more of a self-cocker, with a second trigger at the back of the trigger guard. Although I guess they can be adjusted so that one long pull of the trigger both sets the hammer and drops it.

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

It may have been leading edge technology at the time as perhaps the first U.S. attempt with a double action military sidearm.

I have to think that the cocking mechanism with the second trigger must have been a pain.

Was it a true double action in the sense that we generally understand,....NO.

However the US military purchased approx. 23,000 of them. (According to Flayderman)

My understanding is the single action Starr Army revolver, 8 inch barrel, model of 1863 got better reviews from the troops that used them. (32,000 produced from 1863 -1865.)
It is also a very handsome and serious looking handgun.
($5,000 US approx. for a real nice one.)

It says something interesting about Eastwood as a gun guy to have chosen a revolver like this for his film.

I don't think you would find anything that was incorrect regarding vintage firearms in any of Eastwood's productions.

It would not surprise me if some of the guns used in that film belonged to him.

David

 

[mooncoon]

I think it is the Savage you are thinking about with the cocking trigger. Unusual in that the cylinder indexes on the barrel by moving forward and backward and the barrel fits in a shallow recess in the front of the cylinder. While the method has merit interms of accurately centering on the barrel, it has a major drawback because if the cocking trigger is not all the way forward, the cylinder will recoil back and bend or break the hand. The gun in the photo had a broken hand when I acquired it so I made a new one which lasted about 2 shots :>(
The gun is also fairly heavy and the cocking trigger takes a pretty strong finger to operate.

cheers mooncoon

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

The following is from a dealers site.
You will note the dealers reference to 46 on the barrel and cylinder.
I am willing to bet that that is the caliber designation,...and the dealer doesn't know it???

Starr Model 1858 - Army Model - cartridge conversion revolver - .45 cf (appears to chamber .45 Colt). - About good condition. - Dark plum patina metal w/ dings & usage marks; good markings include crown U proofs. Hand does not advance cylinder; otherwise hammer & trigger are working. Some individual pits in generally good bore. One piece wood grips, worn w/ usage marks. Assembly or conversion numbers include 25 & 7820, both numbers marked on both frame & barrel, and 46 marked on barrel and cylinder. - An interesting cartridge conversion incorporating a five shot replacement cylinder & the firing pin mounted in the frame, chambers recessed for cartridge head. I suspect this is an unidentified standard conversion type rather than an individual gunsmith project. Not discussed in McDowell, does anyone know more on this conversion? - s/n 20625 - antq - item #AZ-S625 - $1,250

http://ww.armchairgunshow.com/otsAZ_conversions.htm

 

[Killer Kanuck]

There was a recent Guns of the Old West magazine article that mentions the Starr conversions, and said they were usually either 44 Colt or a 45 caliber Benet primed cartridge. Could be some oddball European cartridge too.

 

[drm3m]

Please delete.

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

I had some free time today so I did some extensive Goggling to try and find out more about the 1858 and 1863 Starr conversions.

(Because I am a curious bugger and I don't know much about these conversions.)

First of all with regard to your question regarding the double action functioning of these guns.

Flayderman describes it as follows;

"The unusual Starr D.A. mechanism was by no means of the conventional type.
The so-called double action is unique and may more aptly be termed ‘self cocking’ as the gun cannot be used on single action by manually pulling back the hammer alone."


In so far as the conversion calibers are concerned, I saw the reference to the 11mm Montenegrin cartridge which was slightly too large to accommodate the .45 Colt cartridge. (Thus perhaps .46 cal.?)

Most of the references to conversion calibers by different sellers were vague/absent or I suspect they may have been making assumptions.
(It sure would not be the first time.)

There did not seen to be any authoritative reference source that clearly stood out.

It might make an interesting project to try and dig further into this subject.

(i.e. who did the conversations and in what calibers, and where did most of these guns end up.)

I think these conversions are an intriguing variant.

In terms of scarcity, the 1858 D.A Starr Navy revolver (.36 cal.)-a total government purchase of 2,250 specimens is at the top of the list in terms of value. (According to Flayderman)

I have only seen one of these guns in .36 cal.----years ago in an old collection.

David

 

[Killer Kanuck]

I plan on digging a little deeper once I have the gun in hand (should be a couple weeks). There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info out there on them. I noticed the lack of stated caliber on most of them for sale as well, although from what I understand the 5 shot conversions are typically the Belgian converted guns (Belgian proof marks on the cylinders) while the 6 shot conversions are 44 Colt (converted by ???) - the heeled bullet being able to engage the rifling.
I did see 1 .36 cal Starr for sale on a website when I was searching for info - be damned if I can remember which one though.

 

[dingus]

The ones i have seen that wernt Belgian proofed were listed as 44 Colt to.

I wonder if any used the 44 Martin cartridge

The 1858 Remington army cartridge Conversions alot were 44 Colt but the frist 1000 or so were the 44 Martin.
Same time frame isnt it?

A CFC Tec who i talk to alot sent me some great info on the Remington 1858 army Conversions ive ever read!

I could ask about the Star Conversions. They have ALOT of info and books on Antiques.

 

[Killer Kanuck]

That's why I can never get through to them - you're on the line talking shop with them

Put a bug in their ear next time you're talking to them if you don't mind. Any info would be a start.

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

Perhaps a slight deviation from your thread topic....forgive me.

Back in the early 70s my late father and I regularly shot this original 1858 double action Starr Army revolver and 1858 single action New Model Remington, and perhaps this might tie into the question of the double action mechanism question of the Starr as well as some other thoughts.

As I recall the Remington was decidedly more accurate than the Starr, perhaps it was the overall balance and the longer barrel length and grip of the Remington as well as the different responsiveness of their respective actions.

The precise indexing of the single action Remington was a delight, as well; I had an original spare loaded cylinder for the Remington which is a much quicker re-load process than either the Starr or the Model 1860 Colt Army.
These were all .44 cal. handguns.

These three revolvers were the most widely used revolvers by the Union during the Civil War,....in my opinion the Remington is the hands down winner.

I understand why the longer barrel single action Starr Army revolver replaced the double action model in 1863.

David

Today I cringe when I think about shooting original Civil War guns that are in nice condition.



Model 1858 Single Action Remington Army revolver.

Army inspector's acceptance stamp on the grip of the Model 1858 Remington New Model Army revolver, "OWA", for Orville W. Ainsworth. (1831-1870)

Spare Remington cylinder.

Model 1858 Double Action Starr Army revolver.

Inspector's acceptance stamp on the grip panel of the Model 1858 D.A. Starr revolver.

Model 1860 Colt Army revolver ...manufactured in early 1863.

Inspector and sub-inspector's acceptance markings on the right and left grip panels of this Model 1860 Colt Army revolver.

Back then we also shot the two guns shown below,....none of these guns have been fired in almost forty years.

This English pistol, Wheeler & Son, (as shown above) came from John Denner's store back in the 70's. My records indicate that I paid $65 for this piece.....and John sole my Timex watch.

The lock markings on the 'Pennsylvania style' long rifle shown above.

 

[Killer Kanuck]

You've got some old beauties there David.
Do you happen to have any info on what serial number ranges were made in a particular year? I got the serial number from the seller, and I'm curious.

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

Thanks for your comments.

I have never seen a year of manufacture table for Starr revolvers (unlike for Colts), just the number of each model produced over so many years.

You might be interested to see what condition does to current pricing for two Single Action Starr revolvers (1863-1865) from the same U.S. dealer.

The dealer in question.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/show_inventory.php?catID=3&subcatID=26


Price $2495 US

Price $6750 US

Army inspector's acceptance stamp on the grip panel of this Starr S.A. Army revolver.

This is a classic example of the suggestion, "condition...condition...condition."

It can be a bit scary!

At what level can one afford to play the game, and what makes sense to each of us.

These comments are made in a 'collecting sense',....not in a 'shooting sense'.

I went to school with John Denner, and a long time ago he once said ,...if you could bottle "Original Colt Bluing"...you would probably be a wealthy man today


David

 

[Killer Kanuck]

There are probably only a handful in the condition of the lower one in the world, hence the drastic difference. Bragging rights cost big $$$

I wonder if the serial numbers for the DA Army's started up where the DA Navy's left off, or if they started at 0 again. Mine's in the mid-15,000s, so somewhere mid production of the DAs.

 

[drm3m]

Killer Kanuck,

The only references I have suggest;

(Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms...and their values. 9th Edition)

-Starr Arms Co. D.A. 1858 Navy Revolver .36 cal. -Total governments purchases 2,250.----seldom found with inspector stampings. (1858-60)

-Starr Arms Co. D.A. 1858 Army Revolver-total quanty about 23,000.
Most Starr Double Action Army revolvers will be found bearing government inspector markings and only occasionally lacking them (indicating civilian sales.) (.44 cal.) Made late 1850's early 1860's.
Serial numbered from 1 on up.

-Starr Arms Co. S.A. 1863 Army Revolver,(.44 cal.) serial numbering continued the range of the Double Action Model 1858 Army series from about 23,000 on up.

The majority of Starr Single Actions will be found bearing government inspector markings. Approximately 25,000 of them were purchased under contract, although there were some civilian specimens with special features like fancy grips, with similiar values.

Even though the Single Action was produced in larger quanties than the Double Action Army, it brings a higher price on the collectors's market.

For what it is worth?

David

 

[BEARMAN]

In " A STUDY OF COLT CONVERSIONS AND OTHER PERCUSSION REVOLVERS by R. BRUCE McDOWELL" the auther says that there are 2 common conversions, one has a longer cylinder and 5 shots with 5 lockup cuts, the other looked like a shortened percussion cylinder with the normal 6 shots. He also so said there may be other conversions but of the 60 or so that he observed , there were these 2 definite different conversions.