Anybody Shooting the 458x2" American?

Andy

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
329   0   0
Location
Ottawa
I have one that should be ready for the range in 2-3 weeks. Make brass from any belted magnum, size in 450 Marlin dies and use load data for same. As much punch as the hottest 45/70 or 450 Marlin, in a short action.

Looking for tips, bullet and load recommendations, etc. You 45 cal guys - is the Hornady 350 gr RN at 2200 fps a good choice for use on deer?
 
Andy...nice choice, congratulations. You are the proud owner of a wildcat cartrdge that is easy to find brass to form and load for. As you well know it takes the same load data for 450 marlin and up to the strongest 45-70 data as well.

If your magazine well is long enough in a repeater bolt action,you can take advantage of bullets being loaded out longer too.

Starting with your question on the 350 Hornaday RN copper jacketed. I found this very accurate in my K98 mauser FN action. With peep sights a Williams Guide sight, 55 grains of IMR 3031, I believe winchester or cci LR primers worked equally well. From a rest at 100 yards easy to get 1.5 to 2 inch groups no problem. Some days a little better if I was up to it.

405 Remington RN copper jacketed also gave equally good results at 100 yards. For a laugh last winter Silverback and I would take turns shooting offhand and could routinely bang the 200 yard gong, of course this is once we worked out the proper holdover.

As far as forming brass if I was you I would choose to convert 458 full lenght of Remington-Peters brand. I have used 7mm Remington Magnum and 300 Winchester Magnum. However because the shoulder angle was so steep brass forming and bullet seating was more difficult and with handloads I am sure played havoc with accuracy.
I believe the greatest problem there was the extra brass in the walls of the case, that as you form from sub calibre to 45 is left behind without inside reaming of the case.

I went the more expensive route and purchased brass forming dies from RCBS.
That gives you the advantage of reaming tools for the inside of the case. And a fully flush uniform length and ability to nicely finish the end.

I feel if you use 458 Win Mag R-P brass, which I would use because you really need the added stiffness of the case for forming/cutting/filing the case mouth smooth.
In other calibres of Winchester brass I personnaly found Winchester brass cases sadly lacking in this department.

Which is fine for them but their priority is not the reloader.
Just use R-P brass, or Weatherby brass( good but$$$)
By the way Norma used to be the brass manufacturer for Weatherby I am unsure if that is true now.

Norma brass, I mean the Norma brass with their headstamp I found to be the first cases to end up with over large primer pockets.
This was a surprize to me but, the facts speak for themselves.

That load that you mentioned for deer I think will do it. But boy it will really rock your world.
If your action is strong, and I notice you did not mention action type. I assume it is a strong modern bolt action but this is my guess only.

Of course you can load it to maximum, and in some cases you could be experimenting with some load out of this world. Be warned though that you MUST have a well stocked rifle. You must have a recoil pad, I mean a GOOD one. And I fully recommend you get a Benilli Mercury Recoil Reducer also.

Any good Gunsmith in Canada can get you one and safely install it. Save your self some time and bother and get the GOOD recoil pad installed at the same time.

By the way have this rifle fully bedded as this will make the rifle stronger, really really really important with these HIGH kickers.

Or you will end up like me and break a really nice walnut stock and end up buying a Boyds laminate stock to replace it.

If you fell you MUST shoot your cannon before all this is done by a good gunsmith, at the very least keep you reloads loaded down to reasonable levels. AND wait and ensure all of the above was done before shooting those "hot as a rocket handloads."

Avoid IMR 4227 and IMR 4198 in hot copper jacketed loads, keep these powders for milder cast loads. They generate way too uncomfortable recoil once you get above 1800-1900 fps.

The best powders I can recommend are, IMR 3031: the old standby and THE 45-70 powder.

Reloader 7 from Alliant, again a very good powder, also easy to meter.
May be your choice for those Dinosaur killing loads.

Bullet choice, 350 Hornadays Perfect....closely followed by 405 Remingtons.
Some people decry this older bullet design and say the 350 beats it for performance
(penetration depth)which I would say is pretty much true. However that 405 Remy bullet has been used often by 45-70 shooters for up to Buffalo to kill.

Often one shot no problem. I imagine alot of thier success is from knowing what velocity to load this to.

Hornaday 300 grain HPs, easily available, not bad pricewise and should kill a deer like a "Hollywood Lightning Strike."

Yes I have shot 500 FMJs out of this rifle. I think loaded to about 1700 fps. Watching Silverback fire this rifle I am sure at full recoil the rifle raised to a 45 degree angle.
It sure rocked that 100 yard gong!

There is many many cast bullet shooters out there with more info than me...
All I can say about that is those Idaho Territory bullets 405 soft and no GC shot ok for plinking.....


Winning load 350 RN 55 grains IMR 3031, 405 SP 53 or 52 grains IMR 3031, these two loads, I did not even have to re/adjust the sights for at 100 yards!

Any H&H Magnum brand based case can be converted but for ease of forming get 458 Winchester Magnum of R-P brand as this is the closest too and best brass for your needs.

Once you approach 2000 fps in any normal bullet weight recoil becomes a limiting factor dependant upon the shooter's ability to withstand recoil, and desire to get better target groups.

Get in the habit of keeping your thumb out of the way when you fire,you WILL know what I mean if you do this with maximum loads!!!

Get used to calling it a cannon cause that what everyone else will refer to it at the range....

Hope this helps...and I know you will enjoy this versatile rifle cartridge.......
 
Last edited:
Brutus,

Did it help? I should say so. :)

The gun will be built on a M98 Mauser action. I hear you on the strong stock requirements and the recoil. I shoot a 375 H&H, a strong 8mm Wildcat, and have shot 12 ga slug from a bench, so I am prepared for strong recoil and in fact look forward to the experience (in a perverse kind of way). My eyes aren't good enough for a peep sight in a hunting situation anymore, so the scope will be a fixed 3x or 4X, with lots of eye relief. The first few loads will be minimum to work me and the gun in.

I cast bullets and might see what I can cook up in a 500gr pill at 1500-1600 fps with Reloder 7.
 
Very interesting thread! I have one on the go on a Ruger 77. Found a Ruger single shot .45-70 barrel, fitted it to the 77 action, and recut the chamber.
 
Andy
I just found my Wildcat cartridges Book Volume 1 and 2.
There are three chapters on 458 american, one about a XP100 Pistol, one on the M94 Big Bore custom converted and one chapter by a William Hafler who has a Remington M600 Mohawk carbine converted.

He tries out heavy cast as well.

Lyman 457406GC96 gr, 1-16 alloy
38.0 IMR 3031, 1460 fps 1.5 inch at 100yards

32.0 IMR 3031, 1255 fps,-no note-

38.0 N200 1555 fps, accuate load

42.0 IMR 4198 1785 fps, too hot , leading, inaccurate

34.0 IMR 4198 1495 fps, fair accuracy

30.0 IMR 4198 1390 fps, two inch groups 100yards

22.0 IMR 4227 1175 fps, accurate load

Sorry no data on R7.....

"A 500 grain cast bullet at 1400 fps or more makes this adequate for any game in North America-which can again be useful if things get rough.
I've found the hardness of these bullets is quite critical in effects of both accuracy and expansion."
"The 500 grain 1-16 cast alloy loads have an effect that edges toward police "nightstick" guns that fire a sack of lead shot.
( he means bean bag guns I think)
Damage is not great, but knockdown is. The first elk I stopped with it was a small cow that had just caught a 30-06 180 core lokt through the centre of the paunch.(!)
I should have led her as she was trotting at about 150 yards. My first shot rolled her over, but she was on her foreknees gritting her teeth at me as I walked up."

He goes on to say that he went to cut her throat , the elk reeled up and he was thown through the air, into a stream. He gets up recovers and plants a 500 grainer that went fully through her endwise and the elk expires pronto.

His final words, " Thus like any other cartridge, the 458 American has its limitations, and since it is on the extreme end of the scale, it is perhaps has more limitations than most. But for specialized gun for tough situations-like crawling into brush piles after wounded bears-the 458 American is hard to beat. And that is why I consider it the Bestest Bush Gun!
 
Last edited:
I am a little late here, but also have 458 x2. A mauser and a T/C handgun. I used 7mag brass, it was not the best. Then cut off some 458's. They should prob have been inside reamed. I had trouble closing the T/C on some of them even after using the Willis collet sizing die. They have a slight bulge at the base of the bullet. I have shot only gophers with mine using 350gr Berry's copper plated bullets. I have some barnes loaded but haven't tried them. A neat conversation piece for sure. Good luck with it.Mark
 
I bought mine at the same time Andy got his they were supposed to be 450 Marlin.Andy's was a barrelled action and mine was a complete rifle.Mine came with 40 rnds of loaded ammo.I think it is a wildcat 450 Marlin .Based on regular mag brass rather than wide belt Marlin brass.In fact mine came with 40 rnds of loaded ammo brass OAL of 2.1" .Of the 40 rnds there were 4 pcs that measured 2.2" they will chamber but I won't fire them untill I can do a chamber cast.458 win brass is to long the bolt won't close.The brass I have is headstamped 458 win and 300 win mag.If I am right about the chambering 458 American will work fine.Dies will be simple .Just machine the bottom of 450 marlin for the thinner belt.We fired some of the 2.1 " case light loads and they looked fine. Dusty said it hardly kicked at all.:D
Rich
 
From a referance book:

Andy
I just found my Wildcat cartridges Book Volume 1 and 2.
There are three chapters on 458 american, one about a XP100 Pistol, one on the M94 Big Bore custom converted and one chapter by a William Hafler who has a Remington M600 Mohawk carbine converted.

He tries out heavy cast as well.

"A 500 grain cast bullet at 1400 fps or more makes this adequate for any game in North America-which can again be useful if things get rough.
I've found the hardness of these bullets is quite critical in effects of both accuracy and expansion."
"The 500 grain 1-16 cast alloy loads have an effect that edges toward police "nightstick" guns that fire a sack of lead shot.

( he means bean bag guns I think)
Damage is not great, but knockdown is. The first elk I stopped with it was a small cow that had just caught a 30-06 180 core lokt through the centre of the paunch.(!)
I should have led her as she was trotting at about 150 yards. My first shot rolled her over, but she was on her foreknees gritting her teeth at me as I walked up."

He goes on to say that he went to cut her throat , the elk reeled up and he was thown through the air, into a stream. He gets up recovers and plants a 500 grainer that went fully through her endwise and the elk expires pronto.

His final words, " Thus like any other cartridge, the 458 American has its limitations, and since it is on the extreme end of the scale, it is perhaps has more limitations than most. But for specialized gun for tough situations-like crawling into brush piles after wounded bears-the 458 American is hard to beat. And that is why I consider it the Bestest Bush Gun!
 
Last edited:
I have one under construction. Based on a short Ruger 77, with the bolt face opened. Adapted a barrel from a No. 1.
 
Wow - a 15 year old "necro" thread. Many CGN members were in diapers when this was posted, but now possess vast "imaginary" gun collections! How things have changed.

I still have the gun (a real beater) but years ago ran a 458 Win Mag reamer into it and the result was a (very slightly improved) 458 Win Mag "Improved". With 500 gr full house loads, the recoil reminds me of shooting slugs from a 12 ga shotgun.

458_Win_Mag _Improved.jpg

L to R - 458 Win Mag "Improved", 458 Win Mag
 

Attachments

  • 458_Win_Mag _Improved.jpg
    458_Win_Mag _Improved.jpg
    113.2 KB · Views: 24
Back
Top Bottom