Anyone here shooting a 577/450 Martini?

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I recently picked up a nice old Martini sporter by Isaac Hollis and Sons, and I'm trying to get a handle on reloading for it. Got some 24g. brass shot shells and have been able to turn those into casings but haven't found much loading data so far. The bore is excellent, and slugs to .458 which makes it easy enough to feed with my 45-70 405 grain molds. The only load recommendation I have is from Ctgs. of the World; 38 gr. 4198 but I can't get that to work well at all. With dacron filler to hold it against the flash hole it just won't ignite; drives the slug about 6" ahead of the chamber and leaves it there with 90% of the powder unburnt.

Over 15 grains of Unique it's working reliably without filler. Any advice from those who have been down this road before me?

Thanks,
KH
 
I don’t use smokeless powder. I use black powder only. Full case of BP, 0.030 card wad under the bullet with powder compressed about 3/16 of an inch. 1 F powder and bullets lubed with SPG. Bullets sized to 0.459. They where meant to be shot with black powder.
 
If you insist on using smokeless, get a 45 Colt chamber adapter, get the same velocities etc with those loads and the cases are cheaper.

It's also a good idea to use hollow base bullets, if you can find them or get a mold to make them.

One of the folks here that can help you out with proper bullets/loads is Jethunter. Just do a search.
 
There are very few questions posed these days that haven't been addressed before: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...nider-Enfield-577-Calibers!?highlight=577/450

You've already overcome the two biggest hurdles (brass and bullets) and you're one of the fortunate ones whose bore is sized for commonly available bullets and sizers.

As for smokeless loads, that thread contains quite a bit of info for those who choose to use smokeless, for example:



.577-.450 Smokeless Load Data

From Handloader Magazine (Nov-Dec 1978) by Jim Jukes on this subject, and it gives the following data (I apologize for the formatting, but I lost the war with the rudimentary editor used here):


PowderChargeBullet WeightVelocityRemarks

IMR-4759 27 400 1,172 Mild load
Blue Dot 27 400 1,422 Good load - Max
Unique 16 400 1,124 Light recoil
Green Dot 16 400 1,094 Nice-shooting
Red Dot 16 400 1,136 Nice-shooting
Herco 20 400 1,272 Efficient load
IMR-3031 45 400 1,424 Powder left in bore - wadding essential
Blue Dot 19 475 1,075 Nice load. Accurate
Blue Dot 22 475 1,220 Very uniform, with wadding
Blue Dot 25 475 1,374 Powerful, but OK pressure and very uniform velocity
IMR-4759 23 475 990 Very accurate, mild
IMR-4759 25 475 1,109 Very accurate, mild
2400 20 475 1,132 Wadding a great help
IMR-4756 20 475 1,082 Very accurate load
Herco 20 475 1,213 Good Ignition
IMR-4227 30 475 1,144 Wadding a must
IMR-3031 45 500 1,582 Plenty of recoil. Some powder kernels in bore
IMR-4064 50 500 1,529 Unreliable ignition. Wide velocity spreads
Reloder 7 37 500 1,416 Unreliable Ignition
IMR-4759 27 500 1,170 Good-shooting load

I liked IMR-4759 in my Martini and have about 15 lbs of it, but it has been discontinued - Alliant 2400 approximates it. Unique was my second choice - a wonderfully flexible powder that ignites reliably without any fillers (which I have never used). Powders much slower than IMR-4759 (e.g. IMR4198 and IMR4227) will not ignite reliably with the loads required to keep the pressure as low as it needs to be.
 
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This should be in "Reloading" or possibly "Blackpowder and Antiques".


yes reloading forum it is....


and there are a few other threads kicking around here on reloading 577-450

I use IMR 4227, magnum primers, filler (2 sheets cheap TP) and proper brass cases not reformed shotgun cases. bullet is a .458" 405grn cast with Gascheck at 1650fps


Oh and here is the last thread a few months ago

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2099687-Questions-about-loading-the-577-martini


and a much older thread

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...nd-Snider-Enfield-577-Calibers!?highlight=577
 
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yes reloading forum it is....


and there are a few other threads kicking around here on reloading 577-450

I use IMR 4227, magnum primers, filler (2 sheets cheap TP) and proper brass cases not reformed shotgun cases. bullet is a .458" 405grn cast with Gascheck at 1650fps


Oh and here is the last thread a few months ago

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2099687-Questions-about-loading-the-577-martini


and a much older thread

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...nd-Snider-Enfield-577-Calibers!?highlight=577

Why the distinction to use "proper" brass cases? Both reformed 24ga and drawn brass work fine, for different uses.

What doesn't work ("properly") is .458" bullets in a .469" bore.
 
Why the distinction to use "proper" brass cases? Both reformed 24ga and drawn brass work fine, for different uses.

What doesn't work ("properly") is .458" bullets in a .469" bore.

actually the undersized bullets are grouping fine, which was a bit of a surprise to me.

grouping good enough that I managed to come in 3rd place in the CHAS Pre-46 "sniper" shoot a few years back, shooting against iron sighted Lee-Enfields, Nagants, and Mausers.


as for the Shotgun cases reformed to use in the 577-450 some shotgun cases do not have a very thick web and case head. I was fortunate to get a small stock of Jamison brass but when that wears out I will have to re-assess my options.
 
as for the Shotgun cases reformed to use in the 577-450 some shotgun cases do not have a very thick web and case head. I was fortunate to get a small stock of Jamison brass but when that wears out I will have to re-assess my options.

I was always of the opinion that the thin web brass shotgun shells are more representative of the original balloon head cases that would have been used in the day. That's discounting the foil or paper cartridges that might have been used as well.
At the pressures one would load these shells the thin web brass isn't going to be a concern. At the same time it's not a cartridge that suffers at all from lack of powder capacity like some of the old cartridges.
 
I'm trying to feed a Martini sporter by Isaac Hollis and Sons; classy looking arm with a great bore that slugs .458", 5 leaf express sight, pistol grip, horn forend tip, engraving etc. It's considerably lighter than the full military versions at about 7 1/2 lbs. with a 26" barrel and full length rib. Only cases available to me were the 24g. brass shot shells and they formed nicely using only the older Lee die set that came with the rifle. The fly in the ointment is that the throat is considerably larger than necessary, presumably for paper patching. Fired brass comes out with the neck I.D. about 5 thou. larger than is required to hold a proper sized bullet, which seems to be in keeping with the neck expander in the die set. There is barely enough room for paper patching unless I cast or size the pills down considerably, but an experiment with 5 wraps of T tape ( crude I know, but effective) gave very good results.
I'm loading .458" 405s over 16 grains of Unique, large pistol primers ( rifle primers are too deep to seat flush in the shot shells) and getting perfect ignition every time. They are clocking just over 1,000 fps. with no sign of excess pressure and it produce 5 rounds touching each other at 50 yards. That's the only range available to me at the moment. So at least I have a pleasant, reliable plinking load that is fun to shoot, relatively quiet, and more accurate than I expected from a 130-odd year old relic.
I'm still at a loss for a more manly load. No matter what I try with 4198, as recommended in Ctgs of the World and other places, I can't get the stuff to ignite with or without filler. The primer puts the bullet into the bore about 3" ahead of the chamber but virtually none of the powder is burning. Same can of 4198 works fine in a .222 so it's not wonky powder.
I will try some of the other powders recommended above, but the vast unused space inside that great beer can of a cartridge concerns me for warmer loads.
KH
 
I'm trying to feed a Martini sporter by Isaac Hollis and Sons; classy looking arm with a great bore that slugs .458", 5 leaf express sight, pistol grip, horn forend tip, engraving etc. It's considerably lighter than the full military versions at about 7 1/2 lbs. with a 26" barrel and full length rib. Only cases available to me were the 24g. brass shot shells and they formed nicely using only the older Lee die set that came with the rifle. The fly in the ointment is that the throat is considerably larger than necessary, presumably for paper patching. Fired brass comes out with the neck I.D. about 5 thou. larger than is required to hold a proper sized bullet, which seems to be in keeping with the neck expander in the die set. There is barely enough room for paper patching unless I cast or size the pills down considerably, but an experiment with 5 wraps of T tape ( crude I know, but effective) gave very good results.
I'm loading .458" 405s over 16 grains of Unique, large pistol primers ( rifle primers are too deep to seat flush in the shot shells) and getting perfect ignition every time. They are clocking just over 1,000 fps. with no sign of excess pressure and it produce 5 rounds touching each other at 50 yards. That's the only range available to me at the moment. So at least I have a pleasant, reliable plinking load that is fun to shoot, relatively quiet, and more accurate than I expected from a 130-odd year old relic.
I'm still at a loss for a more manly load. No matter what I try with 4198, as recommended in Ctgs of the World and other places, I can't get the stuff to ignite with or without filler. The primer puts the bullet into the bore about 3" ahead of the chamber but virtually none of the powder is burning. Same can of 4198 works fine in a .222 so it's not wonky powder.
I will try some of the other powders recommended above, but the vast unused space inside that great beer can of a cartridge concerns me for warmer loads.
KH

Try removing the neck expander so the neck is sized down, but not back up. Once you have to inside neck diameter where you want it, at these low pressures you only need to neck size every few shots. Others have fashioned a neck sizer using a die from another die set. With the Jamison and Kynoch brass I used, I wanted a neck outside diameter of about 0.488" and I found that a Lee 8X56R Seater die gave me that.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...i-henry-using-fl-sizing-die?highlight=577-450
 
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actually the undersized bullets are grouping fine, which was a bit of a surprise to me.

grouping good enough that I managed to come in 3rd place in the CHAS Pre-46 "sniper" shoot a few years back, shooting against iron sighted Lee-Enfields, Nagants, and Mausers.


as for the Shotgun cases reformed to use in the 577-450 some shotgun cases do not have a very thick web and case head. I was fortunate to get a small stock of Jamison brass but when that wears out I will have to re-assess my options.

The magtech 24g shotgun brass is significantly weaker than drawn brass, of course.

But that doesn't matter because these firearms were designed to be shot with cartridges made out of brass foil wrapped around a case-head. And the 577 parent literally had case walls made of paper.
 
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