anyone loading the .416 Ruger?

wagnerb

wagnerb

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Anyone out there loading the .416 Ruger?

I have put together some pretty mild loads with 400-grain Barnes X bullets, but the all-copper design and short OAL means I'll be running into case capacity issues.

I have a couple hundred 400-grain Nosler Partitions on order, and I would like something reliable and fast enough to stop a grizzly charge (I am a bush pilot and do a lot of single-engine flying over coastal grizzly country). `Never had to shoot, but if I did, I would want the rifle to stop a charge.

I have been using ball powders (68-71 grains of Win 760 and H414 with no pressure signs), but I'm open to anyone's advice on the matter. Recoil was a lot lighter than I expected. I'm guessing muzzle velocity was around 2000fps (which is too slow, I think).

I'll probably use up the rest of the Barnes bullets for practice, but I want something between a good working and a full-house load to stick in the back of the float plane just in case I get weathered in again (long story - think sand bar and 200+ mama & baby grizzly tracks on it).

Not interested in pushing the limits of the cartridge, as reliability is more important than the last 100fps. If I could get factory ammo, I would carry that and stick to reloads for practice.

Oh, and I will have to crimp. Anyone know of a dedicated crimping die for this cartridge?

Thanks to all in advance...
 
Only ever on floats, or skis too?

Ball powders are more temperature sensitive than stick powders. If it needed to be used in cold weather (well below freezing), I'd want to use a stick powder rather than a ball powder.

(I would have thought that near-full-house-loads would be indicated....?)
 
No experience with the Ruger, but plenty with the Remington and the capacities (from what I understand) are very similar.

If you want to keep recoil down and performance up I would go with a lighter Barnes TTSX. The 300 and 350 offer quite a bit less recoil and quite a bit more powder room than the 400. Recoil is down...I would say near 20%. The 400 Partition is a great bullet and the 350grTTSX is probably its equal at reduced velocities.

Best accuracy will come with RL-15, but RL-15 also brings the velocity.....Recoil is quite a bit stronger with the 400 grainers at 2400+!

Mid level accuracy loads? I've had good luck with IMR-4320 and IMR-4064.

The 458Win needs a crimp because it has a straight tapered case and no neck to hold the bullet. You have a properly designed case (with a neck) so you do not need a crimp.
 
.416 Ruger

Those are all helpful ideas, guys.

I do not fly skis - I am based on Vancouver Island - so temperatures from zero C to +30 (at most) is about what this gun will experience. I acquired this gun mostly (a Ruger Alaskan model) because I wanted an upgrade to my Rem 700 in .375H&H after I got weathered in a long way from home. The bears were nice to me that time, but being stranded alone with an aviation survival kit and two candy bars is a lot more comfortable if you have a big reliable cannon sleeping next to you. The .375 is a nice gun, but it is a bit of a compromise (it's not controlled-round feed, my gunsmith refused to cut it down below 22" and I figure 400 grains is better than 270 or 300).

I have a few pounds of RL-15 and if I can find some data I would be happy to reload it, but my Ruger Alaskan has a 20" barrel and I wonder if it is not too slow a burn?

This gun was designed for factory Hornady ammo with their new proprietary loadings, and the factory ammo reportedly gets a 400-grain bullet out a 20" barrel at 2360fps. I have heard that it's difficult to replicate that load at home with current powders - though it won't stop me from trying.

I found one guy on the internet who reportedly went with 78 grains of (I think it was) Win 760 (a half-grain at a time from the basic 70-grain load) and chronoed his 400-grain bullet at 2400fps, but he said his bolt got "a little sticky". I'm no reloading genius, but that scares me a little - according to SAAMI the .416 Ruger is supposed to handle 62,000psi!

I do not own a chronograph, but I would be happy with 2200fps for practice (and until I can get my hands on some of the factory ammo), and X-fan you are right in that a lighter bullet might serve better than the 400.

I think 2200 must be the bare minimum for making a high-powered rifle bullet behave like a high-power bullet, and in this cartridge anything more up to about 2500fps is desireable.

I will happily load this thing as fast as it will go - right up to the point where reliability *might* become an issue. I do not want to test the limits in the field. I do not want to be facing a charging grizzly, fire one shot and have the bolt stick, or a cartridge fail to extract, or...? That would suck.

To crimp or not to crimp? I loaded up my first set without a crimp, but by the time I got to the third round (the one at the bottom of the mag), the bullet had slipped down into the brass about 1/32 of one inch. These were light loads - the kick was not as bad as my full-house .375 (which is a light gun, but I load that with 235-grain bullets when it's not acting as a bear-stopper) - but a little creep in one bullet makes me wonder whether another might creep more, especially when I load up some hotter loads. I was surprised to see any creep at all - the magazine box on the Ruger is so short that the Barnes 400 goes a long way back into the case and the powder was probably already compressed a bit?

I am not sure whether I would make the mistake of putting fresh cartridges on top of the third round, but I do stupid things in the field every now & then, and I want to worry about flying the plane, not whether I am putting cartridges into the gun just right. Also, this gun will be loaded and unloaded a lot, as I do not allow loaded guns on my aircraft, and I do not see the point in sitting around grizzly country with an unloaded gun tucked way in the back of the plane. The good news is that it will not often be shot, except for practice at the range. Even though I bought some QD scope rings, I can't really see myself going hunting with it.

Maybe the bullet creep was an abberation, but in the absence of some other method of preventing creep, for reliability's sake I think maybe I should put at least a light crimp into it. Going to chamber the third round and having powder spill all over the action and the bullet back in the cartridge during a charge would also suck.

Unless anyone has any other ideas for limiting creep? I should add that there was probably some residual lube on the case necks - I don't tumble my cases after sizing - but I would buy a vibrating cleaner if that would also solve the problem.

Does anyone have any advice about using .416 Remington data for the .416 Ruger? I am pretty conservative, but there's just not much `Ruger data out there, and these are pretty similar cartridges.

Any other advice would be appreciated. If I am making stupid mistakes or bad assumptions (e.g. above), please tell me. I would rather find out I am an idiot here at home today than on some sandbar somewhere between Port Hardy and Bella Bella at some point in the indeterminate future.

Oh, one other thing. This gun and its ammo will be in a constant damp environment. I have noticed that some military ammo has a lacquer or some other coating on it. I assume this is to keep moisture out? Does anyone recommend something to enhance the water-repellency of a reloaded or factory-loaded cartridge? I doubt anything is waterproof (especially when it's going up and down in an unpressurized aircraft), but anything that won't hurt the gun I'm willing to try...

Thanks guys,
 
Sounds like you have given this a lot of good careful thought. Everything you've discussed is pretty sensible.

Whatever load you do end up choosing, I would want to have verified that it isn't "just-almost-on-the-edge-of-sticking", by using a charge that has been shown to have at least several more grains of margin without sticking happening. Myself, I'd be happy knowing that three more grains could be loaded without sticking; you make your own SWAG on this.

Re: sealing a case I was going to mention this originally and then decided not to. Nail polish can be used to seal the primer and also the bullet-to-case-neck. An unbroken seal of nail polish should be vapour tight, so even with hundreds of pressure cycles in humid air, the risk of inside-case condensation ought to be pretty much eliminated.

If your die doesn't crimp or if your preferred bullet doesn't have a crimping groove, I would personally investigate (as part of the load development) whether the bullet could be reliably retained by neck tension plus sealant. I'd make sure the inside of the case necks were grease free (e.g. Q-tip with lacquer thinner, make sure it is completely dried before charging with powder), and I'd try using nail polish on the bullet at seating time as both a vapour sealant as well as a neck-to-bullet "glue". Make sure that the nail polish doesn't get into the powder.

If you could avoid compressed powder charges by using a quick-enough powder, that would eliminate one force that is acting to push out the bullet. One posting I read out in the internets mentioned getting 2365fps from a 20" barrel with 78.5 grains of WW-748 with a little bit of bolt sticking. It would seem to me that an assuredly stick-free, honest 2200+fps ought to be achievable.

In rifle length barrels, you don't need to worry about whether a particular powder will be burned by the time the bullet exits. All of them are fully burnt after 8-10" (at the most) of bullet travel. But since you don't need (or want) the very last 50fps possible, you'd be better off using one of the quicker powders (so that the powder charge is not pushing on the bullet, and also to reduce muzzle blast from your short-ish barrel).
 
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wagnerb said:
The .375 is a nice gun, but it is a bit of a compromise (it's not controlled-round feed, my gunsmith refused to cut it down below 22" and I figure 400 grains is better than 270 or 300).
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Can't help you with the .416 but I would suggest that you find yourself another gunsmith...this guy sounds like a tool.

FWIW, I think the .375 would be more than adequate for your needs.
 
> Can't help you with the .416 but I would suggest that you find yourself another gunsmith...this guy sounds like a tool.

I came to that conclusion...eventually. Now I enjoy the exquisite pleasure of ruining my own guns myself. Evern after I fix my own mistakes it costs the same (maybe a little less), I feel better, and I learn a little bit as I stumble along.

> FWIW, I think the .375 would be more than adequate for your needs.

I agree - a good .375 should stop anything on the continent. It's just that I had lost confidence in my gunsmith (long story), and worried about the gun coming through in a pinch.

I also did too much research and psyched myself out over (a) short-stroking the long Remington bolt during a charge, (b) CRF, (c) the too-long-overall gun, and (d) no 3-way safety. None of those things were fatal, but when the .416 was announced, I had the money, the `Alaskan suffered none of the Remington 700's (admittedly perceived) faults, and .416 is better than .375, right?

Now that I have the .416 operational, I have torn down the .375, gone back to a stock safety and trigger, and un-did some of the other "help" I received from the gunsmith. I also re-stocked it in a decent piece of walnut, polished the feed ramp, lips, and bolt channel, and I pillar- and glass-bedded it. She feeds, feels and points like a new gun (I can't wait to re-zero her with her QD NEF low-profile scope mounts), but now she's too nice a rifle to abuse by sticking it in the back of a plane. But that's another story; I'm getting off track...
 
I've been thinking about the .416 Ruger myself. I have 2 LH .375 Rugers and can't seem to find a buyer for my NIB African so may have to make the conversion. How does the recoil from your .416 compare to your H&H?
 
.416 Ruger recoil

Recoil?

Based on my grand sample size of 12 rounds and one trip to the range, I have to say that the .416 Ruger is noticeably lighter than my .375H&H Rem 700 SPS in its tupperware stock. But put a piece of tape on the cheek piece; the grippy hogue stock will give your face an Indian burn (or whatever the PC terms is for it these days).

But I have to qualify my comments:

- these 12 were mild starting loads: 68-71 grains of ball powder (Win 760 and H414) with a 400 grain Barnes X;

- done for the purpose of breaking in the barrel and working up slowly and gently until I could see a little bit of pressure signs (internet "wisdom" suggests a solid working load is between 74 and 78 grains of these powders, but I wasn't going to start anywhere near that);

- muzzle velocity was (I am strictly guessing here) in the ball park of 2000fps;

- the Ruger Alaskan has a more substantial Hogue stock

- the SPS tupperware stock is a real noodle

- the Alaskan has a nice heavy-contour barrel on it

- I was shooting the H&H factory-loaded 270 and 300 grain black talons and somewhat hotter 235-grain handloads (book said they were in the range of 3000fps)

But don't take my word for it. There was a guy at the range shooting a 10/22 who tried a couple of rounds and was surprised at how "not so bad" it was. Your results may vary.

By way of another comparison, I have some pretty hot loads with 200+ grain bullets for my .300WinMag, and when I had the same tupperware stock on it, the .300 had a much harder kick that either the .375's or the .416's kick. I actually like shooting the big bores, which is not the same thing as saying I'm good at it.

I really think that if more people got the chance to shoot a classic bigbore, that more people would buy them. There's something that just makes you giggle like a kid when you pop off a couple rounds of .375 or bigger. I am hoping to find someone with a .458 mag to try out, though I'm no masochist: I have no interest in shooting a .460 Weatherby or even a .375RUM.

If I were made of money, I would get in line for a Ruger .416 or .375 African. They are pretty and have 3" more barrel to play with. Fun fun fun.

Last comment: I still shoot the bigger calibres last when I go to the range - otherwise my .300 (now with a better stock) prints all over the paper. When I load for a trip to the range, I bring a brick of .22LR, a few dozen rounds of .300 Win Mag, and never more than 20 big-bores. Your results may vary.
 
I am willing to bet you have bullet grip issues because the 400 grain Barnes had to be seated too deep?

My 416 Rem was 8 pounds even, kicked like an evil SOB, and I never crimped a single bullet at a bit over 2500fps. The mag box would eventually smash the end of the 400Nosler, but the bullets never moved.
It is possible that you may have an issue with your resizing die...

The 300 and 350grTTSX are violent beasts...You'll have to trust me on that one. ;)

My buddy who also has a 416 Rem calls it his "GOD" power....He walks the land smiting animals. :D
You get the picture....Very impressive to say the least.
 
wagnerb said:
I actually like shooting the big bores, which is not the same thing as saying I'm good at it.
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I like that. I prefer the big guns even though the little ones are easier to shoot straight. I used to shoot 350gr TSX's at 2635fps in the Rigby. Amazing what that will do to critters. You may not get that speed but I am sure even 2500 will impress even the biggest bear. And be easy on that hard to find brass.
 
I;d try 300gr TSX and Varget. We're talking 800 lb bears here, not elephants. Or for defense, the 400gr Hornady RNSP..........should work. I killed a coyote with that bullet in 416 rem, very effective!
 
todbartell said:
We're talking 800 lb bears here, not elephants. Or for defense, the 400gr Hornady RNSP..........should work.
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FYI a friend of mine shot an elephant with a .375 H&H using a Hornady bullet (270 I think, but I would have to confirm). He said that the bullet came apart like a varmint bullet, and that an unexpected and unwanted chase ensued.

For a grizzly protection gun, I'd be a lot more comfortable choosing a bullet suitable for elephant (i.e. minimal if any expansion, but guaranteed penetration and resistance to deflection)
 
I hear Elephant skin is over an inch thick...Might mess with bullet performance. :p
 
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