AR15 ATT for Service Rifle non-approved military ranges

ARH77

ARH77

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lower mainland BC
Hi,

Ok so I finally picked up an AR15 and I'm looking forward to doing some service rifle shooting this year. Someone mentioned a while ago that the military ranges in Canada aren't on the "standard" list of approved ranges to transport a restricted firearm to (the standard one we all get with our restricted PAL)

So I called up the CFO ATT office today to see if I can get an long term ATT for the military ranges. The girl on the other end of the phone seemed a bit..... confused. She never heard of service rifle, didn't think there were any "sport" shooting with AR15's and was generally not super helpful.

She did however confirm that neither General Vokes Military Range and Nanaimo Military Range were on the standard list. She said none of the military ranges in Canada are on the standard list.

She said I'd have to get an ATT for each trip to those ranges. She also said the only LTATT available was for IPSC shooters.

So my questions are;

1) Is the CFO ATT girl out to lunch? or is she correct?
2) Is there a LTATT available to Service Rifle shooters that I can get?
3) What do you guys do?

I feel like I'm missing something here. There are enough service rifle competitions at military ranges that I would have thought the CFO ATT girl answering the phone would have known something more about it.

Thanks
 
You'll get an invite letter to attend service rifle shooting, that would be your "ATT" for the event.

I'm a member at a military range and had an ATT for it back in the paper ATT days... So yeah she's definitly out to lunch like most of these people that apply those stupid laws.
 
I'm in Ontario and shoot service rifle with the Ontario Rifle Association (ORA). We shoot on military ranges and need a separate ATT to shoot there. The ORA applies for long term ATTs on our behalf and are valid until our PAL has to be renewed. The upshot of my story is that you will probable have to ask the club that organizes the service rifle shoots in BC to apply for your long term ATT on your behalf (BCRA?).
 
I'm pretty sure my LTATT with the ORA is just for one year. Our match hosts do a course day in which you can get qualified for said ATT by showing your proficiency with your restricted weapons
 
RifleDude said:
I'm in Ontario and shoot service rifle with the Ontario Rifle Association (ORA). We shoot on military ranges and need a separate ATT to shoot there. The ORA applies for long term ATTs on our behalf and are valid until our PAL has to be renewed. The upshot of my story is that you will probable have to ask the club that organizes the service rifle shoots in BC to apply for your long term ATT on your behalf (BCRA?).
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Almost the same here in PEI. PEIRA PEI Rifle Association memberships give members LTATT as the DND site is our main range.
 
Here's what I think. Please don't take it as legal advice; it is just my opinion.

I have had LTATTs for my home province and for neighbouring B.C. and Saskatchewan to attend matches in those provinces.
I've shot IPSC, IDPA and Service Conditions with restricted firearms in my home province and out of province.

The reason military ranges are not on their lists is because those ranges are exempted from meeting the CFO's standards, and the CFO has no jurisdiction on their use. However, DND ranges (and likely dedicated police ranges too) are in every way, constructed, equipped, and operated to a very much higher standard than the CFO imposes on their civilian counterparts.

The meaning, in my opinion, of needing an ATT to an 'approved range' per the legislation is to clarify that the 'approved range' is a physical range with features meeting the CFO's standards - in other words a 'suitable range' and not some ad-hock, hasty shooting spot in the bush or on someone's property. As DND ranges far exceed those standards, there should be no requirement for a separate short term ATT.

I believe that if you have a LTATT covering you for attendance to ranges in ### province(s) it would naturally extend to use on attendance of a DND range in that province. (Again, iMHO)

I have never bothered with a short term ATT for Volkes as BC is on my LTATT.
I did get a STATT for Conaught, but only because my LTATT does not extend to Ontario.

As the rationale of this nonsense with ATTs in the first place is to give some imaginary control of firearms to ensure some hood rat with a licenced pistol or other restricted firearm isn't just driving around with a gun in the car for nefarious purposes, the notion that a licenced individual attending a match on a military base needs the clueless support of the CFO's office to rubber stamp it (you know - to keep you on the straight and narrow) is laughable. One more shining example of why our firearms legislation is a joke.
 
beltfed said:
Here's what I think. Please don't take it as legal advice; it is just my opinion.

I have had LTATTs for my home province and for neighbouring B.C. and Saskatchewan to attend matches in those provinces.
I've shot IPSC, IDPA and Service Conditions with restricted firearms in my home province and out of province.

The reason military ranges are not on their lists is because those ranges are exempted from meeting the CFO's standards, and the CFO has no jurisdiction on their use. However, DND ranges (and likely dedicated police ranges too) are in every way, constructed, equipped, and operated to a very much higher standard than the CFO imposes on their civilian counterparts.

The meaning, in my opinion, of needing an ATT to an 'approved range' per the legislation is to clarify that the 'approved range' is a physical range with features meeting the CFO's standards - in other words a 'suitable range' and not some ad-hock, hasty shooting spot in the bush or on someone's property. As DND ranges far exceed those standards, there should be no requirement for a separate short term ATT.

I believe that if you have a LTATT covering you for attendance to ranges in ### province(s) it would naturally extend to use on attendance of a DND range in that province. (Again, iMHO)

I have never bothered with a short term ATT for Volkes as BC is on my LTATT.
I did get a STATT for Conaught, but only because my LTATT does not extend to Ontario.

As the rationale of this nonsense with ATTs in the first place is to give some imaginary control of firearms to ensure some hood rat with a licenced pistol or other restricted firearm isn't just driving around with a gun in the car for nefarious purposes, the notion that a licenced individual attending a match on a military base needs the clueless support of the CFO's office to rubber stamp it (you know - to keep you on the straight and narrow) is laughable. One more shining example of why our firearms legislation is a joke.
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You are incorrect the law specifically states section 29 approved ranges and military ranges are not section 29 approved. There are exceptions where the base club has asked their CFO to come and add their range to the list but as a general rule they are not a range that your ATT covers.

The CFO has no authority on a military range, all the CFO can do is say yes you can transport to it and no your standard ATT does not cover it.

Shawn
 
^x2 ....I have to send out letters of invitation to non club members wanting to shoot restricted on our ranges on Garrison Petawawa . I also send in the ATT application for all the members of our club as we have to get ATT,s issued by the CFO. Good news is that the ATT applications only take a day or two to come back are good until their lic expires so some members got 5 year ATT,s .
 
Ok- to play devils advocate:

shawn said:
You are incorrect
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i'm guessing perhaps reading and comprehension isn't your strong suit.

shawn said:
the law specifically states section 29 approved ranges and military ranges are not section 29 approved.
Click to expand...

I stated that. Ask yourself why they are not 'approved'. You've stated it below.

shawn said:
The CFO has no authority on a military range.
Click to expand...

Yes, I stated this too.

shawn said:
all the CFO can do is say yes you can transport to it
Click to expand...

Now ask the question: has a CFO ever denied a request for an ATT to a DND range?
Now ask the next question: if someone had a LTATT for all ranges in a given province, and they attended a DND range in that province, would the legalities of the Fire Arms Act have been met? My contention is that it has.

19 (1) An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms may be authorized to transport a particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm between two or more specified places for any good and sufficient reason, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing,

Shooting clubs and shooting ranges
29 (1) No person shall operate a shooting club or shooting range except under an approval of the provincial minister for the province in which the premises of the shooting club or shooting range are located.
Approval
(2) A provincial minister may approve a shooting club or shooting range for the purposes of this Act if
(a) the shooting club or shooting range complies with the regulations made under paragraph 117(e); and
(b) the premises of the shooting club or shooting range are located in that province.

Regulations
117 The Governor in Council may make regulations
(a) ...
(d) regulating the use of firearms in target practice or target shooting competitions;
(e) regulating
(i) the establishment and operation of shooting clubs and shooting ranges,
(ii) the activities that may be carried on at shooting clubs and shooting ranges,
(iii) the possession and use of firearms at shooting clubs and shooting ranges, and
(iv) the keeping and destruction of records in relation to shooting clubs and shooting ranges and members of those clubs and ranges;
 
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Before the C42 changes, I had a LTATT valid for both CFO and DND ranges. With the C42 changes, CFO ranges are automatically incorporated with my RPAL, and I have a paper LTATT for DND ranges.
If a person were attending a single event at a DND range, I suppose that a STATT could be obtained.
 
beltfed said:
Ok- to play devils advocate:
Click to expand...

You can play all you want but you are wrong

beltfed said:
i'm guessing perhaps reading and comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Click to expand...

We will come back to this, since apparently it is your strong suit

beltfed said:
I stated that. Ask yourself why they are not 'approved'. You've stated it below.
Click to expand...

I dont need to ask anyone I know why. Because the CFO has no authority on DND property or Ranges.

beltfed said:
Now ask the question: has a CFO ever denied a request for an ATT to a DND range?
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Yes

beltfed said:
Now ask the next question: if someone had a LTATT for all ranges in a given province, and they attended a DND range in that province, would the legalities of the Fire Arms Act have been met? My contention is that it has.
Click to expand...

Nope, again you contention is incorrect. No matter how much you want it to be, the CFO had no authority to approve or disapprove, inspect or even attend a DND range unless he is asked to by DND

beltfed said:
19 (1) An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms may be authorized to transport a particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm between two or more specified places for any good and sufficient reason, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing,

Shooting clubs and shooting ranges
29 (1) No person shall operate a shooting club or shooting range except under an approval of the provincial minister for the province in which the premises of the shooting club or shooting range are located.
Approval
(2) A provincial minister may approve a shooting club or shooting range for the purposes of this Act if
(a) the shooting club or shooting range complies with the regulations made under paragraph 117(e); and
(b) the premises of the shooting club or shooting range are located in that province.

Regulations
117 The Governor in Council may make regulations
(a) ...
(d) regulating the use of firearms in target practice or target shooting competitions;
(e) regulating
(i) the establishment and operation of shooting clubs and shooting ranges,
(ii) the activities that may be carried on at shooting clubs and shooting ranges,
(iii) the possession and use of firearms at shooting clubs and shooting ranges, and
(iv) the keeping and destruction of records in relation to shooting clubs and shooting ranges and members of those clubs and ranges;
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Cool story bro

To bad you failed to read and comprehend this:

Canadian Forces

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), this Act does not apply in respect of the Canadian Forces.
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http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/page-2.html#docCont

How many DND ranges have you been on the executive of the base club and dealt with the CFO directly to get it so your non DND members could get ATTs to your range? We all know based on your BS that the answer is zero. Sorry to tell you but I have and you are wrong

Shawn
 
shawn said:
No matter how much you want it to be, the CFO had no authority to approve or disapprove, inspect or even attend a DND range unless he is asked to by DND
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I'm not suggesting that. I stated they have no authority over the CF and on DND ranges in my first post.

shawn said:
To bad you failed to read and comprehend this:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/page-2.html#docCont
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Holy fack - As above - see my first post.

So how many instances have you dealt with that the CFO refused an ATT to a DND range?
 
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tiriaq said:
Before the C42 changes, I had a LTATT valid for both CFO and DND ranges. With the C42 changes, CFO ranges are automatically incorporated with my RPAL, and I have a paper LTATT for DND ranges.
If a person were attending a single event at a DND range, I suppose that a STATT could be obtained.
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As above, you guys have me confused now, has Bill C42 been revoked? I thought we no longer needed a LTATT that is was tied to the RPAL now. As far as Mil ranges goes just call and get a STATT, no big deal.
 
sailorrcn said:
As above, you guys have me confused now, has Bill C42 been revoked? I thought we no longer needed a LTATT that is was tied to the RPAL now. As far as Mil ranges goes just call and get a STATT, no big deal.
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Before the changes brought about by C42, I had a LTATT valid for both CFO and DND ranges. With the changes brought about by C42, CFO ranges are automatically incorporated with my RPAL, and I have a paper LTATT for DND ranges.

Understand now?
 
beltfed said:
I'm not suggesting that. I stated they have no authority over the CF and on DND ranges in my first post.
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You are correct I worded that poorly. No matter how much you want to be able to transport to a DND range under your C42 conditions you can not.

beltfed said:
Holy fack - As above - see my first post.
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I have and its still just as wrong now as it was when you posted it.

beltfed said:
So how many instances have you dealt with that the CFO refused an ATT to a DND range?
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Approximately 30-40

Until we had the local firearms officer come to the range then he would approve short term ATTs for people with invites and long term to those that lived on base.

Shawn
 
Here's how it works in Ontario. You province may differ. How do I know what I'm writing? I coordinated guests (ie people who were not ORA members) and members shooting ORA CQB in 2016. I have also been kept informed of the ATT renewal process for the ORA for 2017 as it is very important for the members that shoot CQB.

You need an ATT to take restricted firearms to a match held at a military range in Ontario. DND ranges are not section 29 approved under the firearms act, the OPP (Ontario CFO) has no authority to approve them.
Members can get a Long Term ATT from the ORA. All Long Term ATTs for the ORA had to be renewed in April 2017, I just got my new one via email. All clubs, at least in Ontario, were on rolling 5 year renewals under the old ATT system, the ORA is still treated like that. So the next roll over where all members must get new ATTs is April 22. If your PAL renews before then, you will have to get another ATT that is good from renewal until April 2022.
People who were not members of the ORA required a letter of invite to obtain a temp ATT to attend events at DND ranges in 2016, I expect the same will occur in 2017.

DINK
 
Join bcra, then fill out the att request form from bcra they'll do all the work for you. Wait a month or two and receive the att in the mail. Mine was only valid for one year.
 
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