AR180 - based firearm bolt carrier construction method

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Ustauk

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It has been noted there was quality control issues with the WK-180C bolt carrier sometimes failing. Although this has been addressed , for the most part, the comment from the Brownell's representative below may be relevant, and may also be something the WS/WX-MCR teams had to face as well. Presumably, PWS will be applying the same construction method to the bolt carrier of the NDS-18, should it ever manage to get the capacity to send some our way with its Canadian partner.

On the below video at 8:32, here's the transcript, edited pulled from the Youtube transcript, slightly modified where the voice recognition mis-took a word or too:
Brownell's on Forgotten Weapons said:
The cam pin on the side, since it's on the left hand side of the carrier it can't go down too far because that interferes with the magazine the feed lips, so the carrier is extremely thin right there. So the carrier has to be a certain hardness and one thing we found during testing was if you when we tried the carrier, I saw this come up on some comments for customers like why don't nitride carrier, we do a phosphate finish, and we don't do that because it changes the hardness when you nitride especially in thin areas like that and it's tougher to control. When we heat treat it the first time we know the hardness and it's good. If we were to nitride it, it can change it, make it too brittle and what we would find is after extensive firing the cam pin would bulge down that that portion of the carrier because it became too brittle. Stuff like that you just don't expect to run into.
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How is the bolt carrier constructed for the WK180-C and WS-MCR currently? Is it heat treated and then phosphated, like the BRN-180? Were the original WK-180C bolt carriers nitride treated, and failed occasionally because of the brittleness issue the Brownell's fellow mentioned? Just curious. Thanks!
 
gutinater said:
Are you saying the SA80 bolt carrier which is AR-180 based in design actually fits in an AR-180 style rifle? If that is the case that is interesting..
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I'm saying that having used the SA80 for several years, now owning a WK180C and having watched videos on the AR180 that the bolt cariier groups are all practically identical.

I make no promises that one will fit in the other, the dimensions/materials may be different but they are design wise almost all the same.

HK made up for all the issues in the SA80, to be frank the WS-MCR and WK180c could do with replicating the SA80 gas system and bolt carrier group
 
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Bratwurst said:
I'm saying that having used the SA80 for several years, now owning a WK180C and having watched videos on the AR180 that the bolt cariier groups are all practically identical.

HK made up for all the issues in the SA80, to be frank the WS-MCR and WK180c could do with replicating the SA80 gas system and bolt carrier group
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Very interesting idea thanks
 
nashleigh said:
To be even more frank than that, I think Wolverine should build a civilian version of the SA80A3 for the Canadian market....! I'd take one of those over an X95.
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Being frankly frank I agree and would be willing to lend my assistance to the project. However we must be frank with ourselves and accept that frankly the potential best person to make parts for any future SA80 would be PWS on account of them making the BRN180
 
As promised. Note that the SA80 carrier is the upgraded HK A2 one

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I saw some of the initial SA80s produced when a troop rotation brought them on their tour of Canadian bases out west. It made the Sten gun look like it was lovingly crafted.

For a very good read on it, I highly recommend the book, The Reluctant Rifle, The Last Enfield. It really goes over the development and history of problems and corrections quite well writen by a Royal Marine armourer. Blistering would be an understatement.

While you are on those bolts, also include if you have some google fu looking at the bolts of the Chartered Industries of Siingapore SAR80 which should also be near identical. For a different take look at the Jard 48 too to see it in a direct impingement form.

There are quite a number of other rifles that use the same principle of carrier on rails with a rotating bolt, but they are very differing shapes.
 
Sterling sold a lot of parts when they closed down
We bought the Enfield magazines etc
I can't remember who in Europe got them
I also think Charter go some for their product development
 
lawn gnome said:
I saw some of the initial SA80s produced when a troop rotation brought them on their tour of Canadian bases out west. It made the Sten gun look like it was lovingly crafted.

For a very good read on it, I highly recommend the book, The Reluctant Rifle, The Last Enfield. It really goes over the development and history of problems and corrections quite well writen by a Royal Marine armourer. Blistering would be an understatement.

While you are on those bolts, also include if you have some google fu looking at the bolts of the Chartered Industries of Siingapore SAR80 which should also be near identical. For a different take look at the Jard 48 too to see it in a direct impingement form.

There are quite a number of other rifles that use the same principle of carrier on rails with a rotating bolt, but they are very differing shapes.
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I've been looking for a copy, but ever since gun jesus, prices for those collectors source books have skyrocketed. I remember grabbing a copy of "Guns of Dagenham" for $30 at milarm's last boxing day sale before they closed shop. Now it's worth around $600! Aand I was hoping to snag an SAR-80 parts kit, but they sold out super quick.


can14 said:
Sterling sold a lot of parts when they closed down
We bought the Enfield magazines etc
I can't remember who in Europe got them
I also think Charter go some for their product development
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I'd like to know more haha. It took me a lot of effort to track down some Radway Green stanag magazines.
 
Armedsask said:
Sa80 runs a single recoil spring on that center hole, correct?
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That's correct

Here is a picture of a broken down SA80 A1

and here is a video of the SA80 A1 rifle being stripped down by Ian from Forgotten Weapons, from the 11:40 mark onwards

Here is a video of a SA80 A2 semi-auto only cadet model being assembled by a cadet following a standard strip down

Here is a video of a more broken down SA80A2 rifle being re-assembled by a REME lad

All in all the things I think the A2 bolt carrier group got right are:

- Very easy to wipe clean
- No firing pin spring
- Firing pin retaining pin (cam pin?) is of very sturdy construction
- Recoil spring and guide rods are all connected, ie. they don't fall apart into 5 different pieces a bit like the WK180C one does.

Here is a picture of a WK180C Bolt carrier group, you can see the lineage very easily
 
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