are there payouts for USPSA?
- Thread starter Musky Hunter
- Start date
USPSA area and some club level 2 matches in the US give $ as part of the prize
for winning your class. The bad side is that it encourages sand bagging or being classed lower than your actual shooting ability is. $100 - 200 for being top shooter in Class D is not too bad. And there are complete guns and parts given as prizes. Here in Ontario, not even a $3.00 medal. Be happy they let you shoot and see your score.
for winning your class. The bad side is that it encourages sand bagging or being classed lower than your actual shooting ability is. $100 - 200 for being top shooter in Class D is not too bad. And there are complete guns and parts given as prizes. Here in Ontario, not even a $3.00 medal. Be happy they let you shoot and see your score.
SquibLoad said:
...who are "they"?
Just FYI...the awarding of Medals is at the discretion of the Clubs...(with the exception of Provincial or National Championships)
Nothing would make me happier than to see Class awards at all Sanctioned matches...
Regards
I think most of the Area level matches do prize tables, and I know the Nationals does.
Area 1 does no prize table.
Area 2 does prize table by order of finish (sandbagging makes no difference).
US Nationals does (or did last time I was there) prizes by class winners first, and then by order of finish. Some of the prizes are very nice.
I've finished 12th in my division at an Area 2 and came home with a Dillon 550.
I've finished 51st at a Nationals and got a full CR Speed rig.
Area 1 does no prize table.
Area 2 does prize table by order of finish (sandbagging makes no difference).
US Nationals does (or did last time I was there) prizes by class winners first, and then by order of finish. Some of the prizes are very nice.
I've finished 12th in my division at an Area 2 and came home with a Dillon 550.
I've finished 51st at a Nationals and got a full CR Speed rig.
- Location
- Halifax - NS
The Florida Invitational used to be an all cash payout. I came home once with $500 US for a measly second B class open finish. (First got $750)
The Florida Open has cash payouts for various wins in divisions and categories, maybe even class (It gets really confusing when Frank starts handing things out) plus a prize table. You ain't seen class sandbagging like the sandbaggers that have collected class wins there.
"This award goes to first "C" Class shooter and he also gets the trophy for second place overall, Bob Jamaica...come on up..."
BTW, it's a stellar match - the organizers can't do anything about sandbagging and grandbagging. It's the nature of the loose requirements to run a classifier stage.
The Florida Open has cash payouts for various wins in divisions and categories, maybe even class (It gets really confusing when Frank starts handing things out) plus a prize table. You ain't seen class sandbagging like the sandbaggers that have collected class wins there.
"This award goes to first "C" Class shooter and he also gets the trophy for second place overall, Bob Jamaica...come on up..."
BTW, it's a stellar match - the organizers can't do anything about sandbagging and grandbagging. It's the nature of the loose requirements to run a classifier stage.
NS has great matches, and they encourage and award the different classes of shooters which you can tell is much appreciated from new shooters; it gives them something for trying their best for the level of experience they are at.
It is not everything, but earning an award is just a little bonus for doing and trying your best. Sandbaggers suck. Granted some shooters just have bad days, personally I always try and do my best.
I have one award from the my first Nationals (2005) for D class in production, because I was a new shooter (got my BB in May 2004), I had limited experience with handguns. ALthough it was D class it meant a lot to me and encouraged me to get better. Hopefully I will be comfortably in C class soon.
Awarding classes is a way to keep new shooters in the sport.
It is not everything, but earning an award is just a little bonus for doing and trying your best. Sandbaggers suck. Granted some shooters just have bad days, personally I always try and do my best.
I have one award from the my first Nationals (2005) for D class in production, because I was a new shooter (got my BB in May 2004), I had limited experience with handguns. ALthough it was D class it meant a lot to me and encouraged me to get better. Hopefully I will be comfortably in C class soon.
Awarding classes is a way to keep new shooters in the sport.
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kent23 said:What is sandbagging???
edit:
Never mind: I think I figured it out. Wikipedia gave a good description with Dan as an example.
Was there a picture? Was it long haired Dan or short haired Dan
...hhmmm....didn't know he was so sensetive about it...probably shouldn't have made that smart ass comment in the upcoming copy of Sitrep
Please disregard
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heheheh, yah there are those who would rather sandbag and get a trophy or medal, than actually see what they are capable of and be judged by that. I know I'd rather be honest with myself and my abilities than just sit in a lower class and collect medals.
as for prize money and stuff. I sometimes wonder what our organizations do with the money we send them? I constantly hear #####ing about entry fees and stuff, especially for big matches (like say the last World Shoot, where did all that money go?) I know that matches can be expensive to put on, and trophies aren't cheap, but I know I wouldn't mind a breakdown on where the money goes. I don't think the clubs should be in this to make a profit, but then again maybe I am wrong?
as for prize money and stuff. I sometimes wonder what our organizations do with the money we send them? I constantly hear #####ing about entry fees and stuff, especially for big matches (like say the last World Shoot, where did all that money go?) I know that matches can be expensive to put on, and trophies aren't cheap, but I know I wouldn't mind a breakdown on where the money goes. I don't think the clubs should be in this to make a profit, but then again maybe I am wrong?
I was just privy to the accounting for a Level III. Those buggers are expensive. High entry fees are appropriate.
For instance, I bet the match director for the nats is going to really pull the stops out.
Oh, and Quigley... I'll disregard you!
For instance, I bet the match director for the nats is going to really pull the stops out.
Oh, and Quigley... I'll disregard you!
- Location
- Halifax - NS
Yep, it's expensive. It really is amazing how many things slip in.
I'll see if I can dredge up a copy of the budget from the last time I hosted the nationals to post. It's not like it's a big secret.
I think that Trophies and lumber were my biggest expense, but in different parts of the country, it's different things. Ie. Poco had a nice hall for the meetings and food, whereas Guelph needed to rent a bigass tent.
Porta potties are nasty. You can't just rent em - you gotta pay to get them cleaned out every couple of days and there's never enough toilet paper...
Then you look over at one of your best helpers make his tenth run in his 3/4 ton truck for lumber and think - man he's spending a fortune on gas to do this, better help that out...
As annoying as range vehicles can be, they're a necessity for stats collection and range masters and keeping things rolling, etc.
I've never had a problem with a club making a small profit off a large match. (ie $2K on a nationals)
The way I look at it, it helps for the organization to still be there when we come back. I've seen too many organization run things "totally non-profit" and get themselves into binds. You have to think "profit, but not much."
I usually run our provincials at a loss here. If the section's kitty is well stocked with funds (from target sales and mission fees, etc from the year) then I spend it on the provincials to show the members a good time. If the kitty's tight, the match is run tight to budget.
Back to topic, Prizes are always a challenge. You have to recognize the best - but then where do you stop on the rest? There would be no match without the rest of the competitors, hence the classes...you gotta do something there. Make it serious cash and the daggers get drawn...make it nothing and you don't get participation. It's a tough balance where you never please everyone.
I'll see if I can dredge up a copy of the budget from the last time I hosted the nationals to post. It's not like it's a big secret.
I think that Trophies and lumber were my biggest expense, but in different parts of the country, it's different things. Ie. Poco had a nice hall for the meetings and food, whereas Guelph needed to rent a bigass tent.
Porta potties are nasty. You can't just rent em - you gotta pay to get them cleaned out every couple of days and there's never enough toilet paper...
Then you look over at one of your best helpers make his tenth run in his 3/4 ton truck for lumber and think - man he's spending a fortune on gas to do this, better help that out...
As annoying as range vehicles can be, they're a necessity for stats collection and range masters and keeping things rolling, etc.
I've never had a problem with a club making a small profit off a large match. (ie $2K on a nationals)
The way I look at it, it helps for the organization to still be there when we come back. I've seen too many organization run things "totally non-profit" and get themselves into binds. You have to think "profit, but not much."
I usually run our provincials at a loss here. If the section's kitty is well stocked with funds (from target sales and mission fees, etc from the year) then I spend it on the provincials to show the members a good time. If the kitty's tight, the match is run tight to budget.
Back to topic, Prizes are always a challenge. You have to recognize the best - but then where do you stop on the rest? There would be no match without the rest of the competitors, hence the classes...you gotta do something there. Make it serious cash and the daggers get drawn...make it nothing and you don't get participation. It's a tough balance where you never please everyone.
Here's an Australian perspective, this may or may not be relevant as I'm obviously unfamiliar with Canadian match organisation.
The quality of the match really does effect the customers viewpoint on value for money. For example, at the 2003 Australian IPSC Nationals, I estimate the host club made $10,000 profit off the canteen alone. Match entries would have brought in around $70,000. That club is constantly hosting major matches and making money from them. They have the best facilities in the state as a result.
All of the props were new. All of the poppers, swingers and target stands were new. Everything was painted, the grass was mowed, there was a prize draw every night (which kept everyone at the range bar for an extra hour = more revenue. Can't complain as I got a DVD player).
The presentation dinner was well catered with good food, good acoustics, good service. medals were award for top 1,2,3 in every grade and category, and for each stage win, with each win called seperately, even if you ended up with several.
No one thought forking out $300 for entry was too much.
In 2004 match entry was $175.00. Props were minimal with plenty of black plastic sheeting stretched over frames. Ranges had just been bulldozed and had plenty of dust but no grass. Poppers etc were recycled. The food at the presentation dinner ran out, leaving a third without dinner. Accoustics were awful. booze was free and plentiful. Winners were called up and handed all of their prizes in one bundle, then shuffled off.
End result: a lot of people felt ripped off, and some were drunk and belligerent.
If it's a nationals or state/provincial championships, a lot of the shooters will be taking time off work, travelling long distances and paying for food and accomodation. I've gone to level IIs that effectively cost a couple of thousand to attend. When that is factored in, charging a few extra dollars for match entry to allow the club to put on a damn good match, replenish it's supply of props and have some money in the bank at the end of it makes sense. At a state titles here an extra $10.00 can equal an extra $1000.00 for the club to work with.
At level IIs, for a while they were treated as club cash machines in my home state, until attendances started to drop off. Fees were dropped (from $50 to $35.00-$40.00) and money started to be put back into props, not just the general fund. Result: most matches are over subscribed.
On the subject of prizes, most people are happy to get a box of projectiles or primers and we have industry sponsors who will provide these. Most clubs now spend money on making their statuette/medallion/etc more unique, so that they are something to be coveted. I've a bunch of stattuettes for various grade wins, they all look much the same. Only two have meaning. My first D grade win and my first A grade win when I beat the reigning national champion.
When the trophy, instead of some minature funeral urn is an IPSC classic target laser cut from 15mm thick perpex and engraved, or a metal statue of a bushranger (colonial armed criminal) with a plaque, or a scale model IPSC shooter with a 1911 up on aim (top lady prizes had a poney tail and are anatomically correct) or.... you get the picture. It's important to give recognition to the newbies, so they are more likely to come back. The best of the best have to be recognised. Having interesting trophys that will look good when displayed really negates the need for a prize table in my mind.
I'll agree with FV, if the range dosn't have toilets, portapotties are essential, otherwise women shooters will not attend.
The only cash that gets given out is to ROs, they get their accomodation subsidised.
The quality of the match really does effect the customers viewpoint on value for money. For example, at the 2003 Australian IPSC Nationals, I estimate the host club made $10,000 profit off the canteen alone. Match entries would have brought in around $70,000. That club is constantly hosting major matches and making money from them. They have the best facilities in the state as a result.
All of the props were new. All of the poppers, swingers and target stands were new. Everything was painted, the grass was mowed, there was a prize draw every night (which kept everyone at the range bar for an extra hour = more revenue. Can't complain as I got a DVD player).
The presentation dinner was well catered with good food, good acoustics, good service. medals were award for top 1,2,3 in every grade and category, and for each stage win, with each win called seperately, even if you ended up with several.
No one thought forking out $300 for entry was too much.
In 2004 match entry was $175.00. Props were minimal with plenty of black plastic sheeting stretched over frames. Ranges had just been bulldozed and had plenty of dust but no grass. Poppers etc were recycled. The food at the presentation dinner ran out, leaving a third without dinner. Accoustics were awful. booze was free and plentiful. Winners were called up and handed all of their prizes in one bundle, then shuffled off.
End result: a lot of people felt ripped off, and some were drunk and belligerent.
If it's a nationals or state/provincial championships, a lot of the shooters will be taking time off work, travelling long distances and paying for food and accomodation. I've gone to level IIs that effectively cost a couple of thousand to attend. When that is factored in, charging a few extra dollars for match entry to allow the club to put on a damn good match, replenish it's supply of props and have some money in the bank at the end of it makes sense. At a state titles here an extra $10.00 can equal an extra $1000.00 for the club to work with.
At level IIs, for a while they were treated as club cash machines in my home state, until attendances started to drop off. Fees were dropped (from $50 to $35.00-$40.00) and money started to be put back into props, not just the general fund. Result: most matches are over subscribed.
On the subject of prizes, most people are happy to get a box of projectiles or primers and we have industry sponsors who will provide these. Most clubs now spend money on making their statuette/medallion/etc more unique, so that they are something to be coveted. I've a bunch of stattuettes for various grade wins, they all look much the same. Only two have meaning. My first D grade win and my first A grade win when I beat the reigning national champion.
When the trophy, instead of some minature funeral urn is an IPSC classic target laser cut from 15mm thick perpex and engraved, or a metal statue of a bushranger (colonial armed criminal) with a plaque, or a scale model IPSC shooter with a 1911 up on aim (top lady prizes had a poney tail and are anatomically correct) or.... you get the picture. It's important to give recognition to the newbies, so they are more likely to come back. The best of the best have to be recognised. Having interesting trophys that will look good when displayed really negates the need for a prize table in my mind.
I'll agree with FV, if the range dosn't have toilets, portapotties are essential, otherwise women shooters will not attend.
The only cash that gets given out is to ROs, they get their accomodation subsidised.
Rob, on the idea of clubs making a profit, in OZ, with many range committees dominated by ISSF shooters, if they don't show a profit they don't get the use of the range.
As for sandbagging, we call it pirating for obvious reasons. I shot my first match as a D grader then practised for a year. At my next match I shot an B grade score and was promptly regraded. If there are three master grade shooters in a division and you break grade, then you are automatically regraded. Basically you can only rort the prize table once, and as it's likely to be a box of projectiles or a box of primers each time, why bother.
As for sandbagging, we call it pirating for obvious reasons. I shot my first match as a D grader then practised for a year. At my next match I shot an B grade score and was promptly regraded. If there are three master grade shooters in a division and you break grade, then you are automatically regraded. Basically you can only rort the prize table once, and as it's likely to be a box of projectiles or a box of primers each time, why bother.
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Rad, great post. I should clarify what I meant by profit. I don't mean clubs shouldn't make a profit, as they need to to survive. But at what point is the line drawn on profit and the money put back towards the match or shooters? I've shot some matches that had pretty crappy props, and ranges, and over heard the organizers talking about how much money they had made. Yet I never saw it come back in new props the next year. Perhaps they needed that money for other things, I don't know. But Ecuador, while fun, was not what I expected for the amount of money that was thrown their way. And in talking to others who've gone to other Worlds, they felt the same.
