Army and Navy Cooperative gun quality and markings

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Vaterslote

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Looking for some help as I investigate an A & N double gun of which I am now the proud owner. I contacted the A&N archives and they confirm that the gun listed is a ‘K’ Quality hammer gun, with a B. A. top lever.

They also gave the meh purchaser and the original cost in 1910 for £5 15s 0d.

I am wondering about seeing which London manufacturer could have made this gun and sorting out various proof marks.

Does anyone have a listing of what constitutes the various 'quality to letter' markings from Army & Navy? (Mine is a "K"; what does this mean?)

Also looking for proofs from the gun makers to see if I can link up anything. I know for example Greener used the Elephant. Any help is appreciated.

Rob

Sorry I cannot post pictures. feel free PM me if you can help but need to see something in particular.
 
English gunmakers did not proof their own guns. The elephant is Greener's trademark, not any kind of Proofmark. The two Proof Houses operating in UK at the time of your gun were in London and Birmingham, and still are there operating on a daily basis.

As your gun was retailed in London, it is more than likely to have London Proof marks on it - on the action and on the barrels. There will be MANY stamps on the water table of the action - the flat bit exposed when you open the gun.

Sadly, without recourse to images that's about it.

OTOH, it might have been made in Birmingham, in which case it will have the BPH stamps, or even in Belgium, and have Liége proof marks. One thing is certain, it will have one of those three sets of stamps - gun proof regarding guns sold to the general public in UK has been the law since the 1830s.
 
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It will have either London or Birmingham proof marks, regardless of where it was actually made. This was and is a legal requirement for the gun to be sold in Britain. Birmingham proofs on the bottom of the barrel breeches are easily recognized, look for the letters 'BP' or 'BNP' and the crossed sceptres symbol, sort of like an rough X with letters or numbers in the spaces. Army and Navy are not believed to have actally made any of their own guns, although they had a small in-house workshop and did repairs and alterations on customer's guns. Over 90% of Army and Navy guns were made in Birmingham, by more than a dozen makers but there are usually no identifying marks pointing to the source. Sometimes a gun will have distinguishing features that are normally associated with a particular maker such as an in force patent or a house style. During certain periods, including when your gun was made, Webley And Scott was their largest supplier, as they were for much of the gun trade, top to bottom.
Army and Navy 'made' guns of all grades but universally their products were very well made and finished. They put out a lot of guns and because of this and the fact that they were a retailer ( they also sold other maker's guns under that maker's name) their guns today are often overlooked and under appreciated. The original owners were mainly military officers who knew the value of care and maintenance of firearms so they frequently show this care today. Of course it didn't hurt that an officer at this time would have an enlisted man "batman" for a servant, he didn't need to get his own hands dirty.
Regarding the 'K Quality' marking, there are many guesses but the truth is nobody really knows the significance of these and similar ones today. I have had two Army and Navy hammer guns with this same marking, both were very plain, very well made, and with truly outstanding wood, seemingly out of place on a basic gun. Maybe a clue, one of these was documented as a gift to the original owner, so it was possibly a special order. Or perhaps the 'K Quality' was just a meaningless marketing tool, they did this then just as they do today. I have also seen this on other makes, including Westley Richards, W W Greener and others.
 
Ashcroft said:
It will have either London or Birmingham proof marks, regardless of where it was actually made. This was and is a legal requirement for the gun to be sold in Britain.
Click to expand...

It is a the legal requirement for all firearms sold commercially in the entire United Kingdom, not just [Great] Britain.

Incidentally, the A & N also sold Mauser rifles. My Model B Sporting Rifle in 7x57 was bought by a family going out to Rhodesia in 1913 to crop-farm of some kind. It came back to UK in 1990, and it was bought for me for very little money at a trade auction in Liverpool. About five years ago, I handed it over to my Tanzanian shooting buddy to shoot [Youtube tac's guns Mauser] with the story - it turned out that he had gone to boarding school in Harare with the grandson of the original owner, and had learnt to shoot with it. Small world, eh?
 
Really small world. We sponsor an orphanage in (just outside) Harare called Village of Hope. Appreciate you help again. Spoke with Mark Crudgington about the 10 ga Gibbs and Pitt. Learning a lot and having fun with these ol’ girls.

Sent Tac pictures of the proof markings today.
 
If you are following this thread TAC has taken a look at the pictures and sent his observations.

Here is the breakdown for you

12g = 12 gauge

1 1/8 weight of service load of shot

BV = 1925 and later view mark [that's an initial inspection to make sure that it is for for proofing

BP = post 1904 Birmingham definitive proof

NP = nitro proofed

12 over c = chamber SHORTER than 3" - usually means 2 3/4".

Entwined logo on barrels - Birmingham provisional Proof stamp.

The gun looks to be very nice and is an English-made piece.

Good shooting!!
 
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