Army&Navy value check?Pics added(big).

[longbranch*]

Normally wouldnt ask "what's it worth" question, but just got this as part of a deal. Being more a milsurp collector I'm not up on English shotguns. What I do know is: It's a 12 gauge, Army& Navy, Ansen&Deely box-lock/non-ejector action which is nice and tight, good bores. The big "negative" is serial number under wrist and barrel are different. Anything you can tell me is appreciated.I added pics of choke markings and muzzle.
Cheers
Geoff

 

[tiriaq]

The serial under the barrels may be the maker's, the one on the trigger guard tang A&N CSL's number. A&N did not make the guns, they bought them from established gunmakers. They sold only quality pieces. A&N sales records have survived, they are held at the University of Glasgow, IIRC, and you should be able to find out exactly when the gun was sold, and to whom.
I cannot really help with valuation, but it looks like a fine gun, in respectable condition.

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

Cabela's almost always have a few on their site.....that would offer some idea on price range for one in that condition.

 

[Sharptail]

Longbranch, you lucky dog, you have a fine shotgun in your possession. While an economical gun, it will embody the balance and handling characteristics which make English guns so desirable.

Tiriaq's information is correct, but I can add that your gun is almost certainly made for Army & Navy CSL by the firm of Webley & Scott, and is most probably based around the Model 500 action. The give - away is the patented "screw grip" system for the top lever, which incorporates a third fastener using the rib extension. In addition to the fastener, your example includes a doll's head, something I have not seen a lot of on screw grip actions. Another nice feature is the bushed firing pins.

It would be very useful to see photos of the water table and barrel flats. It is very likely that the gun has 2 1/2 inch chambers (although original 2 3/4 chambers are possible but rare). I am guessing that the gun dates to the late 1920's or early 1930's. It would also be interesting to know the length of pull and the barrel length. The chokes will also be worth paying attention to - many of these guns were choked full and improved cylinder, an odd combo these days but very useful for an all around shooter.

As to the value, assuming no mechanical issues and no dings in the barrels, guns such as this sell in the $1,750 range (plus or minus $250 depending on wood quality, length of pull and condition). If the chambers have been lengthened by a gunsmith subtract $300. 28 or 30 inch barrels are more desirable than 26 inch.

These guns are absolutely wonderful for use on grouse or pheasant. While they can be a bit of a pain to be made to fit you (you might get lucky), once you have experienced the effortless manner in which they mount, swing and shoot you will be spoiled for anything else.

Like all British game guns they are not made for heavy loads. Kent distributes the GameBore Pure Gold shells which were made specifically for guns such as this. They work like magic on the game they were intended for. Find a flat of number 6's (English measure, more like #7's here) and go hunting!

Congratulations on your acquisition, please make the best of it.


Sharptail

 

[Grouse Man]

I think you found a diamond in the rough. That stock looks to be gorgeous, and the craftsmanship really shows in the details in this gun. Take some pics of the stamps on both the barrel undersides and the receiver, that'll tell us a lot more.

Very good pictures, by the way. Well done.

 

[ben hunchak]

Def. a nicely made gun by one of the better Brit. makers, depending on condition i concur with the $2K assessment. I'd keep it and enjoy using it!!

 

[longbranch*]

Army&Navy

Thanks for th information gentlemen. Just had another look at it and noticed that seems to have lost any choke it had!. Barrels measure exactly 28" so I'm wondering if were originally 30's. I'll post some pics later of the barrel-flats and the muzzle.
Geoff

 

[Levi Garrett]

Looking at the work, and the fox like features, I would say in that condition $2000 to 10,000 looks 1930-1950

 

[jimmyjazz]

Nice find I had what looks like the twin if not that gun and traded it a while back.

Shot very well with it just wish it had ejectors.

Enjoy it.

GG

 

[Mark Dube]

Geoff, that is a very pretty gun, the guys are all correct, A&N or " The Army & Navy Co-operative Society Limited" has a long and interesting history of sourcing guns and equipment for members (Later for retail). I have owened all manner of gun and pariphinalia with thier mark, rifles, shotguns, pistols etc. This particular gun is quite plain jane or economy model, with little engraving. Almost certainly a Webley & Scott product, it incorporated the "P Webley & Sons Patent third fatener" and no intercepting sears.

Are the illustrated proof marks the only ones on the gun? This is an incomplete set of marks and will not provide much help in dating it. There should be some marks indicating bore diameter, chamber length etc. If you could provide those we could narrow the date of manufacture down significantly.

I do not concur with the values offerd so far though, I notice several issues which suggest high mileage & questionable gunsmithing:


1) in your first & second picture it is clear that the head of the stock has been "pinned" an ornate bolt has been installed from sie to side through the head of the stock. This is usually done to repair an internal break/crack in the head of the stock, commonly caused by the repeated use of heavy(inappropriate) ammunition.

2) Your 4th photo clearly shows the gun to be "off Face". This is caused by either the hook wearing (may or may not also be "loose") or the hook &/or action bending from use of innappropriate ammo, and can be a very costly repair.

3) in your 7th & final photo it appears that the top rib is not attached to either barrel. Although it is not possible to tell how much of the rib is detached from these photos, the apparent rust in the photos should raise some concern. I also think I see radial grinding/polishing marks & pitting inside the left bore in this photo.

All of these issues are correctable, but you must determine barrelwall thicknes, etc. to determine if such repairs are economicaly viable.

I would strongly recomend having a knowledgable double gun smith verify it's safety before I used it.

I hope that helps (and doesn't sound too negative)

Mark

 

[trevj]

To add to what has been said, you can contact the archivist at the U of Glasgow and they will tell you by email, the date this shotgun was shipped, and to whom.
If you want a copy of the page that the records are on, if it exists, they will provide that for a fee (50-75 dollars or so)
I was able to find out some info on a family heirloom that way.

DAGS for the Double Gun Journal Forum. Lots of knowledgeable shotgun guys there.

Cheers
Trev

 

[catnthehatt]

I have to echo Mark here, as the muzzle looks like it may have been worked on.
Also, the screws do not line up, which means it has been taken apart, maybe to be repaired?
Cat

 

[Grouser]

Had & sold several Army and Navy guns just like this one most in better condition -- Retail $1500 to $1700 in it's present condition.
Luck/Cheers, John

 

[longbranch*]

A&n

Thanks to all for your knowledgable replies. If I decide to keep it I would definetly take your advice and have it looked at by a gunsmith familiar with these guns.
Cheers
Geoff

 

[1shotdown]

you know, I've always been a shot-gunner and after my first single (hinge) shotgun I moved to a pump and never looked back, until recently. I'm really starting to love those SxS shotguns

Nice peace !

 

[longbranch*]

Update

Showed this Army&Navy to our local gun-guru here in town and found out some interesting facts. Turns out it's pre-1880 based on the "Not for ball" markings on barrel according to his book of proof marks. Not Nitro-proofed. He suspected barrels were professionally shortened 28" from 30" as chokes are gone. He varified it locks up tightly with no sign of being "off face" and the barrels have good "ring". Either way, I really admire this old gun.
Geoff

 

[Sharptail]

Longbranch, I must respectfully disagree with your "gun-guru" regarding the date. The screw grip fastener incorporated into the Scott spindle (top lever) on your gun was patented by Thomas Webley and Thomas Brain in 1882 (Patent Number 3053 of 1882) so the gun cannot pre-date that. In addition, the Anson & Deeley boxlock action was patented in 1875 (patent no. 1756 of 1875). I can find no record of either Webley or Scott paying royalties to Westley Richards for use of the patent, so the gun was no doubt made after the patent expired in 1889.

The few proof markings you have shown us do look like London proof house markings of the type used up until 1925, the gun must pre-date that. However, the word "Choke" appears in your picture, and the "Choke" marking first appeared in 1887 (I think, I'll have to look it up).

I still believe the gun to be a Webley & Scott model 500, and Webley did not merge with Scott until 1897. It is possible that I am wrong about the model, and it is possible that Webley did pay royalties to Westley Richards and I just don't know about it. I am certain that the gun does not date to pre - 1880.

Please post pictures of the water table and barrel flats so we can continue to explore this fascinating mystery!


Sharptail

 

[longbranch*]

Pics added

Thanks for that Sharptail, very interesting. You are obviously very knowledgable on this subject and I thank you and the others for sharing. Here are some more pics.
Geoff