"AR's to NR profits gained by the change, plus?

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Hey all

As the title states I was wondering what profits and any other differences would be if AR's were to be switched to NR here in Canada.

Greentips had posted up a response to another thread (Wanstall's: ACR DMR sales thread) where I stated that rifles such as there ACR DMR or XCR and others seem so expensive as compared to AR's and I brought up the ongoing "NR Tax" scenario we so commonly joke about (or not joke about).

Greentips had stated and rightly so that the cost of these NR Black Rifles in Canada is in fact as good or better then other countries and it's only our weak dollar that is to be attributed to the higher cost, well that and the massive production numbers of AR's (which also allows for a lower selling price).

My question was: it would be interesting to know the ratio of AR rifles sold in the US of A versus Canada as compared to all the NR Black Rifles sold in each country.
As I thought the ratio would be very different (meaning a higher percentage of AR's sold versus these other Canadian designated NR Black Rifles) since AR's in the US of A hold a status similar to an NR rifle here in Canada, allowing them to be used for hunting and plinking on what we call Crown Land.


So my point to this thread is: what do you think would be the financial (and any other consequences) to making the AR NR here in Canada?

I for one believe it would be a huge boost to AR sales particularly in the hunting and plinking circles where the use of an AR currently is banned for those uses on Crown land.
Also it might be a huge boost to the Canadian Firearm's business community along with Canada's government; due to the taxes generated from all of the AR's sold and all the associated accessories and ammo. etc., job creation possibly?

Plus the immense joy to be known by all as we could once again hunt and carry AR rifles on our crown lands.

This above fact alone may be enough to make all the world a better place and put us all on the right track to a just and fulfilling society for all.:p

Cheers D
 
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If AR does become restricted the price will actually go up, because there is still the 18.5" barrel requirement which puts it in the DMR and SPR territory and there just aren't a lot of US companies making them at a scale that we going to see a good price break. Just like the folks down south, people will continue to buy ACR, XCR and other NR , simply because they want something other than an AR. The only rifle you going see getting wipe out is the Modern Hunter because they are just too similar to an AR.
 
According to Gravel, 100ish ACR DMR were imported. Also, 8000 CZ855 were imported over 10 years. Also, up to a few years ago, Swiss Arms has only made about 28000 PE rifles since the 90's.

Now, in one year down in the states.......how many ARs are made?


ATF report is 2 years behind, so the latest is 2014.

Colt - 59K
Stag arms - 18K
Adam Arms - 6.7K
Diamond Back 9.8K
Core - 7.8K
KAC -1.7K
AAC -3.2K
PWS - 1.9K
Armalite - 6.6K
Rock River -18K
LMT -2.4K
Anderson - 17.6K
S&W - 159K ( including the rim fires though, maybe Thompson centre is included)
LWRC -7.2K
TITAN INDUSTRIES INC - 17K
Windham 27K
DPMS - 79K ( based on the location , part of remington )
CMMG -2.6K
Del-ton - 10K
Ruger - 65K ( Just a guess based on their NC plant output, most likely there are some other models included)
Noveske 1.6K
Daniel Defence 15K
Palmetto stat.4.8K
Aerotek - 3K
MegaArms - 6.6K
Bravo - 7K
BlackRain- 2K

Bushmaster is buried in Remington NY, so it is hard to tell. So that adds up to 200K AR15 minimum, including lowers - and most likely close to 300K in total.

Just to add some interest pieces,

IWI USA made 17K rifles in the US. Guess what they made? That is really a run-away smashing success. For example, HK made about 2000 MR and Steyr did about a bit over 1000 AUGs. How about AKs and SKS? Serbia, hungary and romania exported about 40k firearms to the US, and Russia did another 30K

Another interest piece is that canada exported 330K firearms to the US in the same year.
 
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The world market for AR-15s and other black rifles is absolutely dominated by the US. Changing the laws here or anywhere (or everywhere) else won't affect a thing in terms of price or supply. The only thing that affects that is the market in the US and the current foreign exchange rate.

But it sure would be nice to have that platform non-restricted in Canada. Demand here would probably double or triple.
 
One of two things woulf happen. Either ars would magically become more expensive, or the other Nr options would magically become cheaper.
 
I just sold my AR as being restricted sucks. Why dump money into something you cant actually use? Punching paper n stuff gets old really fast.
 
I suppose the price for the typical AR15 would jump a bit, then fall back with more competition over time.
What would change is the price of other NR black guns would drop A LOT.
$2000 for a well used AR-180B? Or $700 for a new, full warranty AR-15?
Your call....
 
The price of long barrels might jump as people rush to get NR barrels and complete uppers.

But really back to reality, unfortunately unlike the states our populace didn't democratically elect a gun friendly government. Here, we are the outsiders "complaining it ain't fair", in the people's minds.
 
AR and AK will always be cheaper because of the high volume of production and the many contractors to choose from, so there is always a way to keep cost down.

Things like XCR, ACR....etc, they make couple thousands guns a year. The effect is already built into the US market, so you just have to take a look at down south and Canada will look the same if AR is NR. There are alway people who want something different and pay more. The rest of the people just want a semi auto and they find an AR at Walmart. The prices for these "other guns" will be the same, but the volume will just go down.
 
greentips said:
According to Gravel, 100ish ACR DMR were imported. Also, 8000 CZ855 were imported over 10 years. Also, up to a few years ago, Swiss Arms has only made about 28000 PE rifles since the 90's.
Now, in one year down in the states.......how many ARs are made?

ATF report is 2 years behind, so the latest is 2014.

Colt - 59K
Stag arms - 18K
Adam Arms - 6.7K
Diamond Back 9.8K
Core - 7.8K
KAC -1.7K
AAC -3.2K
PWS - 1.9K
Armalite - 6.6K
Rock River -18K
LMT -2.4K
Anderson - 17.6K
S&W - 159K ( including the rim fires though, maybe Thompson centre is included)
LWRC -7.2K
TITAN INDUSTRIES INC - 17K
Windham 27K
DPMS - 79K ( based on the location , part of remington )
CMMG -2.6K
Del-ton - 10K
Ruger - 65K ( Just a guess based on their NC plant output, most likely there are some other models included)
Noveske 1.6K
Daniel Defence 15K
Palmetto stat.4.8K
Aerotek - 3K
MegaArms - 6.6K
Bravo - 7K
BlackRain- 2K

Bushmaster is buried in Remington NY, so it is hard to tell. So that adds up to 200K AR15 minimum, including lowers - and most likely close to 300K in total.
IWI USA made 17K rifles in the US. Guess what they made? That is really a run-away smashing success. For example, HK made about 2000 MR and Steyr did about a bit over 1000 AUGs. How about AKs and SKS? Serbia, hungary and romania exported about 40k firearms to the US, and Russia did another 30K.
Click to expand...

Thanks Greentips, some good information there.
Now if I/we could only figure out the ratio of AR's sold compared to all the "Canadian Version" :)Canadian Version meaning: rifles such as the ACR, XCR-L/-M, RFB, M-305, FNAR, HKSL84/5, SG540/542, ATRS MH/MV, MR1 plus SU-16, Type 97 Mini-14/30 etc.) or NR Black Rifles sold in both the USA and Canada.

My point is that if we knew for example: that in Canada for every #1 AR Rifle sold #20 NR Black Rifles are sold,
versus: in the USA where they sell #2 AR Rifles for every #1 "Canadian Version" NR type Black Rifle?

If this scenario were even close to being true we could suggest a similar occurrence of AR sales/ownership here in Canada provided of course the AR's were in fact NR and allowed for hunting etc.
You remember back when the privilege of AR ownership with NR are status was the norm and using an AR for hunting etc. was enjoyed safely and responsibly; like I have no doubt to would be today.

Why I'm saying this is because if we had stat.'s that could back up the ratio of AR sold as compared to "Canadian version of" NR Black Rifles... then all the possible profits (money to be made not only by the Canadian Firearms Industry, but our Canadian Government too) could not only be calculated, but attributed to the change of AR'S becoming NR.
Then possibly those opposed to AR's being NR would see that there is a legitimate reason(s) other then common sense;) to allow these AR rifles to become NR.

Some may argue that changing the AR to NR would also lead to an overall reduction in centre fire rifles in Canada as well (many might consider having just an AR for all center-fire shooting due to their superior versatility and capabilities) since reducing all one's rifles for: "the one rifle to own if you could only own one rifle" might be a reasonable consideration?

Gatehouse said:
I think ARs would sell like crazy if NR. Guys would hunt with them. Especially yote hunters.
Click to expand...

Just what I'm thinking.

DILLIGAF said:
Im so used to my ACR and Tavor, I dont see why id get an AR again.
Click to expand...

Weight (ACR) and accuracy (Tavor) come to mind, plus reduced cost (at current prices anyways), ease of parts replacement/upgrades and options to all the quality parts options.

Just the ability to swap uppers from a 11.6" for tight spaces then onto say an approx. 16" for an all purpose choice then maybe a 18" or 20"+ for long range target/hunting easy/peasy.

A big reason for hunters would be the availability of different calibre's; choices like a hi-power rifle cartridge such as the .308 calibre (which to my knowledge isn't available with either of the rifles you mention) would be paramount for the people wanting to hunt larger game.

I suppose once we had shown all the naysayers how practical suppressors are here in Canada (and they were made legal for firearms use) then the calibre's that are suitable for suppressed fire would also make AR's a better choice since AR's come available with all the best calibre's for use with a suppressor (and don't tell me you wouldn't want to shoot your ACR or Tavor suppressed).

tootall said:
I suppose the price for the typical AR15 would jump a bit, then fall back with more competition over time.
What would change is the price of other NR black guns would drop A LOT.
$2000 for a well used AR-180B? Or $700 for a new, full warranty AR-15?
Your call....
Click to expand...

Exactly...

greentips said:
AR and AK will always be cheaper because of the high volume of production and the many contractors to choose from, so there is always a way to keep cost down.

Things like XCR, ACR....etc, they make couple thousands guns a year. The effect is already built into the US market, so you just have to take a look at down south and Canada will look the same if AR is NR. There are alway people who want something different and pay more. The rest of the people just want a semi auto and they find an AR at Walmart. The prices for these "other guns" will be the same, but the volume will just go down.
Click to expand...

When you state those numbers of rifles produced/sold is that for America or the world?
Not knowing the American market for firearms I cannot speak to the amount AR's that are in use or sold every year as compared to the common NR Black Rifles sold here in Canada.

Saying that I for one do not consider a SKS to be in the same category as an AR or the NR Semi.-Auto. Black Rifles I've listed here that are available in Canada (however that may not be the popular view?).

Semi.-Auto., Rifle Cartridge, Black Rifles still being produced and sold in Canada as Non Restricted (rifles such as the ACR, XCR-L/-M, RFB, M-305, FNAR, HKSL84/5, SG540/542, ATRS MH/MV, MR1 plus SU-16, Type 97 Mini-14/30 etc.) are what I'm comparing to the AR rifle.

These are the rifles that IMO would no longer retain such a high demand once the AR;) becomes NR (not going to mention BullPups since I believe they will always hold a practical place for those that prefer them).

These rifles listed ("the Canadian NR Black Rifles" I've listed previously in this post) would be a large portion of the rifles affected significantly by the AR becoming NR as I for one believe they would become nothing more then a rare novelly (except for those, that may for some, offer a tangible difference in quality, performance or design over an AR...) especially if the prices did not drop significantly.

Thanks to all for replying to the thread.

Cheers D
 
I think that I, like many others, would get back into the AR game if we could actually shoot them anywhere we wanted. I think prices may go up a bit in such an instance because there would be a little bit more of a supply and demand situation which would give sponsors the idea that they could ask a bit more money for the average AR. That may settle down in time. I think the guns that would really hurt would be the currently lot of non-restricted black rifles that would not be sought out quite as much and their sales would fall to the increasing AR sales.
 
The RCMP response to the AR15 being restricted is because it's part of the M16 family rifle which is restricted. It's not answering any questions, it's just it's restricted because it's restricted.

One of the reason could be because the upper is interchangeable easily. Which means it's the upper that should be restricted or non-restricted with it's own serial number for example.

Making the AR15 compliant to non-restricted would be very easy. But we all know the truth is, it's an organization that wants monopoly on force, the end. There is absolutely no logic behind gun control except control and monopoly on force. The Armalite platform is used by the RCMP and the Canadian forces. Let them have it, I don't care, we have our Tavors and upcoming X95s which are better anyway.
 
Gaebz said:
The RCMP response to the AR15 being restricted is because it's part of the M16 family rifle which is restricted. It's not answering any questions, it's just it's restricted because it's restricted.

One of the reason could be because the upper is interchangeable easily. Which means it's the upper that should be restricted or non-restricted with it's own serial number for example.

Making the AR15 compliant to non-restricted would be very easy. But we all know the truth is, it's an organization that wants monopoly on force, the end. There is absolutely no logic behind gun control except control and monopoly on force. The Armalite platform is used by the RCMP and the Canadian forces. Let them have it, I don't care, we have our Tavors and upcoming X95s which are better anyway.
Click to expand...

I suspect the real reason the AR family is restricted, was that back in the days it was part of the recognized scary Hollywood evil-guns that they wanted to prohibit by name. But some managed to strike up a compromise citing it is widely used in legit range sports, hence meeting half way and making it restricted.
 
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