Avoiding rim lock jams while loading No 4 Lee Enfield with chargers

cantom

cantom

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I have been trying to get this down pat. I've been taught how to load the chargers. 2 outside rounds have their bases against the back, next 2 in have base sitting up on 2 outside rounds' rims, middle round down.

I confirmed that order by watching a video on youtube.

However, when loading 10 dummy rounds via chargers rapidly...I am often getting the last round on top sitting with rim locked behind second round.

It makes sense if you look at how the order is on the charger. Last round in is behind the second last in.

Now, the earlier military brass was bevelled so that the rims could slip over each other, while newer commercial ammo does not have the bevels.

I watched a video where the guy was explaining all of this and how the rounds rotate as they go down into the mag and how to avoid rimlocks and how the genius design prevents them...and then the guy gets rimlock after rimlock, it's a dog's breakfast.

Any comments welcome.

Is there a way to do this 100%, rapidly with no rim lock jams, with modern non bevelled ammo?

This video is a trifle tedious but if you watch he has lots of problems.



[youtube]i5AmttkxvTk[/youtube]
 
I have the same problem with my #4MKII. If I try to use "properly" loaded chargers, I get rimlock every time. The only way I've been able to use them is if I stack the rims one on top of the other and then pay attention to which way they're aligned as the charger has to have the correct end inserted into the bridge.

Auggie D.
 
Im not very experienced with these rifles but I'm curious. When you single load cartridges into the magazine each rim ends up in front of the last. At least thats how i do it. I push the round down slightly ahead of its position in the mag and slide it backwards until it stops. Never had a single issue.

Shouldn't chargers be loaded in the same way? Or does the design of the charger prevent this method from being used? (I haven't tried a charger yet)

Alternating rims just seems like it would be prone to them getting stuck on each other.
 
C.308 said:
Im not very experienced with these rifles but I'm curious. When you single load cartridges into the magazine each rim ends up in front of the last. At least thats how i do it. I push the round down slightly ahead of its position in the mag and slide it backwards until it stops. Never had a single issue.

Shouldn't chargers be loaded in the same way? Or does the design of the charger prevent this method from being used? (I haven't tried a charger yet)

Alternating rims just seems like it would be prone to them getting stuck on each other.
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Yes, you can load the charger asymmetrically and it works great - problem is the military way of loading the charger allows either end to be inserted into the magazine first to expedite loading in a combat situation. The military answer to a rim jam is probably to push the bolt harder but this may be hard on brass.. loading the charger asymmetrically works great as long as you have the situational awareness and stick the right end in the gun - which you will see that BOTR will do in some of his videos(including the one you linked which had no rim jams, you'll see he has a paint mark on one end of the charger) when using civvy pattern ammunition.
 
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Loading ten rounds of commercial ammunition has a tendency to cause issues - mind you, most soldiers seemed to also forgo loading ten rounds as well, because the potential remedies for jams could be more complicated with a stuffed magazine. Of course, loading less than ten also means you can jam another chargers worth into the magazine at any time you like...

From the Small Arms Training pamphlet on the rifle:

Lesson 3 -Loading And Unloading

9. Jams and remedies.-

In peace, if immediate action does not remedy a jam, the rifle will be taken to the armourer.
Jams seldom happen, but may be caused by:-
  • Faulty handling of the bolt - the fault of the solider.
    [*]Dirt or oil in the magazine - neglect by the solider.
    [*]Dirty, damaged or defective ammunition.
    [*]Badly filled chargers.
    [*]Worn or damaged parts.

i. No round enters the chamber.
Draw back bolt.
Press rounds into magazine sharply and release them suddenly.
Tap bottom of magazine sharply.

ii. Damaged lips of magazine.
On service, lever up lips with a round of ammunition.

iii. Missfire.
Reload.

iv. Badly filled charger.
Load with fresh charger.

Modern ammunition is a bit of a pain in the ass, because it does not have the correctly chamfered rim. Having said that, if you end up with a rim jam push the rounds down into the mag (as directed in the pamphlet) or work the bold harder which will force the round home.

Or, you can load a single charger and after a few shots off you can load another - no jams.
 
7ECA: You know, you've got me wondering whether just loading one charger at a time is the way to go, and maybe loading all rounds leaning one way to boot, with paint mark to go at top. Yes, it's much easier to deal with a mag with only 5 rounds in vs 10 when you have a rim jam. You can actually push them down and give them a bit of a rattle.

I begin to see why the Mosins have that interrupter thing...maybe a very good solution to dealing with rimmed ammo.

You can sure see why they moved on to rimless ammo...the Americans I think dumped rims after the .30-40 Krag wasn't it? No more rims for them and good riddance.
 
Good discussion, but I think we are missing something - all the Canadian and British ammo supply came in stripper clips, loaded so that the charger was used either way. There must be a subtle technique that has been lost or forgotten - soldiers did NOT re-arrange their chargers, and did NOT mark which end was the end of charger to use. Somehow they got it to work!! OP, if only your top (last in / first out) of ten rounds is rim jammed, you did something differently with your first charger worth (top one not rim jammed) than you did with your second charger's worth??
 
When my dad started in the British Army they loaded 10 initially but were told to shoot 5 + load 5 whenever possible (about a year later it didn't matter any more, he was testing the SLR). Also when using a charger they were told to hold the charger in the left hand (everyone in the British Army at that time was right handed :rolleyes:), rounds toward the little finger, insert the charger with the thumb toward bridge, thumb in the middle of the rounds. With the thumb pointing toward the bridge, push downward and slightly backward. This ends up with the rounds against the back of the mag and the thumb under the bottom of the charger. The charger is then flipped out by the thumb nail as the hand comes away. I see so many folks daintily picking the charger out of the action, it's quite funny. You have to kind of lock your thumb and drive the rounds down - like working the bolt, you can't be tentative, but this method is faster, solves a lot of issues with loading and results in a cleaner quicker reload with no wasted movement. Once I got the hang of it, it was a bit of a "Eureka" moment. It makes a lot of the claims of speed shooting rates more realistic too.
 
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enefgee said:
When my dad started in the British Army they loaded 10 initially but were told to shoot 5 + load 5 whenever possible (about a year later it didn't matter any more, he was testing the SLR). Also when using a charger they were told to hold the charger in the left hand (everyone in the British Army at that time was right handed :rolleyes:), rounds toward the little finger, insert the charger with the thumb toward bridge, thumb in the middle of the rounds. With the thumb pointing toward the bridge, push downward and slightly backward. This ends up with the rounds against the back of the mag and the thumb under the bottom of the charger. The charger is then flipped out by the thumb nail as the hand comes away. I see so many folks daintily picking the charger out of the action, it's quite funny. You have to kind of lock your thumb and drive the rounds down - like working the bolt, you can't be tentative, but this method is faster, solves a lot of issues with loading and results in a cleaner quicker reload with no wasted movement. Once I got the hang of it, it was a bit of a "Eureka" moment. It makes a lot of the claims of speed shooting rates more realistic too.
Click to expand...

Holy crap Enefgee! I just tried that and it worked slick! Perhaps the missing link from the original designers of the rifle. Thank you!
 
Potashminer said:
Good discussion, but I think we are missing something - all the Canadian and British ammo supply came in stripper clips, loaded so that the charger was used either way. There must be a subtle technique that has been lost or forgotten - soldiers did NOT re-arrange their chargers, and did NOT mark which end was the end of charger to use. Somehow they got it to work!! OP, if only your top (last in / first out) of ten rounds is rim jammed, you did something differently with your first charger worth (top one not rim jammed) than you did with your second charger's worth??
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Okay, using enefgee's Dad's method...the top round is still rim locked but by forcefully working the bolt it goes forward and the rest of them feed fine. And tipping the charger out with your thumb saves you an excess operation.
 
enefgee said:
When my dad started in the British Army they loaded 10 initially but were told to shoot 5 + load 5 whenever possible (about a year later it didn't matter any more, he was testing the SLR). Also when using a charger they were told to hold the charger in the left hand (everyone in the British Army at that time was right handed :rolleyes:), rounds toward the little finger, insert the charger with the thumb toward bridge, thumb in the middle of the rounds. With the thumb pointing toward the bridge, push downward and slightly backward. This ends up with the rounds against the back of the mag and the thumb under the bottom of the charger. The charger is then flipped out by the thumb nail as the hand comes away. I see so many folks daintily picking the charger out of the action, it's quite funny. You have to kind of lock your thumb and drive the rounds down - like working the bolt, you can't be tentative, but this method is faster, solves a lot of issues with loading and results in a cleaner quicker reload with no wasted movement. Once I got the hang of it, it was a bit of a "Eureka" moment. It makes a lot of the claims of speed shooting rates more realistic too.
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While I do not doubt that was taught to your father the proper drill was five in the magazine remove the charger manual (the thumb flick makes a degree sense although I doubt it being useful while wearing gloves) insert the second charger of five rounds then close the bolt that causes the charger to be ejected and no need to manually hand remove.
 
In the great rimmed versus rimless ammunition discussion, people always mention .303 British as an obsolete calibre (due to the rim - no one seems to care about ballistics) but is quite content to keep using their Great Grandfather's 30-06. The other thing that's amusing to me, is people are quite happy to bang away with Mosins and their rimmed ammo; because surplus is still just plentiful enough to keep the cost down.

I think the real argument boils down to ammunition cost, if you are fortunate enough to find a store that is selling Prvi .303 FMJ for $25/box or less you should buy a large quantity of it - that way you are relatively well set for future need as well as easily able to reload, if desired. I've got a small stash of Wolf .303, and it's a major tradeoff buying it because it is in the "cheap" price range for .303 but the bullets are undersized at .308 instead of .312 so it can keyhole in more generous bores... But, I've played around with it enough to know that you can unjam it easily enough following British/Commonwealth doctrine. The more familiar you are with your rifle, the more easily you can operate it.
 
I have found that when a Lee Enfield is treated like a battle rifle, most (99%) of those issues do not present themselves. if you daintily operate it, you will have more issues. I`ve never really paid attention to how I load the stripper clips, and have not really noticed any issues.
I only have one with a badly worn bolt that gives me feeding trouble, it does not get used because I don`t trust it, but it works fine with any other No 1 bolt thrown in it

I remember SFRC had Privi and S&B for $18 a box in around 2015 or so. I bought lots.
 
infideleggwelder said:
I have reloaded a fair bit of this brass as well as fired it new, I just don`t seem to get the rim lock people talk about very often, not often enough to be a problem anyway.
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Rim lock is really only an issue using chargers. Single loading means you slide each round down and each rim is in front of the one below.

I never used chargers before until recently.
 
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Happens to me sometimes. I use the standard military method to 'charge' my chargers.

On loading the last charger, with the dominant hand, have the thumb at the base of the top round, as far as the edge of the charger will let you. Press all the way down with the thumb, into the magazine.

Press in a downward 'J' or 'L' shaped (whatever works for you), with the end 'J' or 'L' oriented towards the chamber.

Basically, just rotate the thumb so that it pushes the top round forward, over the round beneath.

Works in my rifle.

YMMV.
 
7ECA said:
In the great rimmed versus rimless ammunition discussion, people always mention .303 British as an obsolete calibre (due to the rim - no one seems to care about ballistics) but is quite content to keep using their Great Grandfather's 30-06. The other thing that's amusing to me, is people are quite happy to bang away with Mosins and their rimmed ammo; because surplus is still just plentiful enough to keep the cost down.

I think the real argument boils down to ammunition cost, if you are fortunate enough to find a store that is selling Prvi .303 FMJ for $25/box or less you should buy a large quantity of it - that way you are relatively well set for future need as well as easily able to reload, if desired. I've got a small stash of Wolf .303, and it's a major tradeoff buying it because it is in the "cheap" price range for .303 but the bullets are undersized at .308 instead of .312 so it can keyhole in more generous bores... But, I've played around with it enough to know that you can unjam it easily enough following British/Commonwealth doctrine. The more familiar you are with your rifle, the more easily you can operate it.
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Obsolete doesn't mean ineffective. 45-70 is a powerhouse of a round I would not want to be hit by, that doesn't mean it is as effective a round as others.

You can find rounds that do the exact same thing as .303 without the rim, easiest old example being 7.65x53 Mauser (plus it has the benefits when your making millions of rounds of saving a bunch of brass). Clearly if the rim wasn't a disadvantage you wouldn't be having all these debates on how best to use the rifles, you don't see how to load a Mauser properly threads popping up from time to time. You also don't see people complaining about 7.62x54r simply because no one tries to argue the Mosin Nagant is the best rifle out there.

For the record I personally prefer rimmed ammo over rimless myself, I like the way rimmed ammo feels for holding and reloading. That doesn't mean I am blind to the flaws of rimmed ammo, or that I believe someone with rimmed ammo can't be effective.
 
Removing the charger with the thumb was an extra step, you can charge the last 5 and just work the bolt. The chargers were meant to fly out while working the bolt "purposefully" in a combat situation. Only time I get rimlocked on any of my LE's are with the worn out chargers that are loose fitting enough let the rounds move before charging, the NOS ones can be brutally stiff.
 
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