the spank
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Planet Earth Wearing My Tinfoil Hat
B.C. parks no haven for grizzly bears targeted by trophy hunters
- Thread starter Lionhill
- Start date
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
You realize Suzuki is Japanese, right?
If he wants all hunting stopped in the area then he should try to get it turned into a National Park. They stop all hunting so that the bears can over populate and cause problems all around the park!!
Provincial parks allow sustainable resource use. Managed by people who know the difference between sustainable and gut reaction.
Provincial parks allow sustainable resource use. Managed by people who know the difference between sustainable and gut reaction.
bluemike807
CGN Regular
- Location
- Eastern Ontario
Actually he grew up in London, Ontario.
Im really disappointed in several of the comments here, from grown men. Apparently, Grown, Bigoted Men.
Learn to spell 'Eco-Fraud' before you pigeonhole someone as one.
As for the article itself, which surprisingly few of you people commented on, it raises an excellent point.
Our Provincial and National Parks are just that - reserves of flora and fauna; places where both of those things can exist, unthreatened, because realistically, they cant or don't elsewhere. They don't because they've been killed off, either directly or as a result of other human activities.
This article's main issue is that many grizzlies, which should be safe inside these parks - conserved for future generations (which includes hunters) - are instead being effectively poached by American hunters, aided by local guides. Its bad enough the Yanks have effectively killed off their own populations of Moose, Grizzly and many other game and non game species, but now they're threatening our wildlife. More than that, they're threatening OUR wildlife that is protected by region.
Think about that.
And if your first thought is to tell me to 'go hug a tree' or 'go back to the forest' or something similarly purile. Save us both the trouble, I got used to ignoring comments like that in grade three. Spend the energy reading up on your nations wildlife heritage instead.
The hunt is sustainable and responsible, that's why it's allowed. I'm no fan of US hunters, but one thing I will say for them, at least they have guides along to keep the poaching down. I'd be a lot more concerned about the quebec hunters that hunt in North Eastern Saskatchewan, without guides. There have been several cases of poaching by this particular group. One such dirtbag was shipping poached antlers back via courier but the parcel leaked blood and was investigated. Google Porcupine Plain and Poaching...
Here is one example of quebec hunters pillaging Saskatchewan wildlife
http://www.gamewarden.ab.ca/archive/Summer2006/feature.htm
Here is one example of quebec hunters pillaging Saskatchewan wildlife
http://www.gamewarden.ab.ca/archive/Summer2006/feature.htm
Bluemike - well said.
It is all our interests to make sure that the grizzly population (like that of every other species) is sustainable. Culling from the top is fine, but dipping below that level threatens not only the grizzlies but also our own sport and enjoyment.
If the hunting Suzuki is talking about is inside a protected area, I'd be happy to personally drop the poachers off between Mama Bear and her cubs and sell tickets. If on the other hand, it's limited to the sustainable level and subject to proper control, then it's fine. If the present levels of legal hunting are not enough to ensure a sustainable bear population, then tighten them down until they do.
The problem for us of course is that too many eco-enthusiasts still think Bambi was a documentary and the media just make a confused situation more confusing. Trying to bring in where the hunters come from doesn't help, either. There are idiots and criminals everywhere.
It would be nice to get the straight facts.
It is all our interests to make sure that the grizzly population (like that of every other species) is sustainable. Culling from the top is fine, but dipping below that level threatens not only the grizzlies but also our own sport and enjoyment.
If the hunting Suzuki is talking about is inside a protected area, I'd be happy to personally drop the poachers off between Mama Bear and her cubs and sell tickets. If on the other hand, it's limited to the sustainable level and subject to proper control, then it's fine. If the present levels of legal hunting are not enough to ensure a sustainable bear population, then tighten them down until they do.
The problem for us of course is that too many eco-enthusiasts still think Bambi was a documentary and the media just make a confused situation more confusing. Trying to bring in where the hunters come from doesn't help, either. There are idiots and criminals everywhere.
It would be nice to get the straight facts.
- Location
- North-Central Quebec
Very well put. By the way, nice suffix to your nick.
Great_White_hunter
Member
- Location
- Edmonton Alberta
The idea of having a national park stay in the state it was originally is absolute ludicrous, All environments change regardless of our involvement, but in fact our involvement has caused huge problems, for example the suppression of forest fires in all regions of North America has resulted in the forestation of areas that traditionally were grassland, as well as ending the fire cycle which is the natural way of "refreshing" and ecosystem. Because of lack of fire the actual carrying capacity in most national parks has GONE DOWN, because forests don't provide close to as much dietary vegetation that a burn or even cleared (yes meaning forested for lumber) area does.
On the fauna side of the National Parks issue (this bit is for you blue...) by eliminating hunting altogether in these parks (especially carnivores) this also limits the carrying capacity. All know know anything about bears know that the older a bear gets, the larger its territory, and the less amount of bears he will allow into his territory. Not only will a territorial bear kill other bears cubs but it will also just beat up the ones he can't kill till they leave his area, this is suspected by some ecologists why there is an increase of young bears coming into human contact (especially in the parks).
And the misguided notion that Americans have killed off their own game species is a terrible stereotype total misnomer. Deer, elk, blackbear, and moose populations are higher now than they have been in over 100 years in the United States. And many independent studies by highly accredited science and ecology groups have said that the grizzly numbers in the United States is high enough that a hunt is sustainable. The only reason that Grizzly are still on the threatened list is because they are an iconic species that is basically the poster child for organizations like the Sierra Club, which have pretty impressive lobbying power for being a bunch of misguided anthropomorphizing idiots.
If you guys get the chance go to your local book store and pick up the book "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Hunting" by Frank Miniter, I think everyone here would enjoy it.
On the fauna side of the National Parks issue (this bit is for you blue...) by eliminating hunting altogether in these parks (especially carnivores) this also limits the carrying capacity. All know know anything about bears know that the older a bear gets, the larger its territory, and the less amount of bears he will allow into his territory. Not only will a territorial bear kill other bears cubs but it will also just beat up the ones he can't kill till they leave his area, this is suspected by some ecologists why there is an increase of young bears coming into human contact (especially in the parks).
And the misguided notion that Americans have killed off their own game species is a terrible stereotype total misnomer. Deer, elk, blackbear, and moose populations are higher now than they have been in over 100 years in the United States. And many independent studies by highly accredited science and ecology groups have said that the grizzly numbers in the United States is high enough that a hunt is sustainable. The only reason that Grizzly are still on the threatened list is because they are an iconic species that is basically the poster child for organizations like the Sierra Club, which have pretty impressive lobbying power for being a bunch of misguided anthropomorphizing idiots.
If you guys get the chance go to your local book store and pick up the book "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Hunting" by Frank Miniter, I think everyone here would enjoy it.
bluemike807
CGN Regular
- Location
- Eastern Ontario
Im not pretending to be an authority on such, but I also know the wildlife management in our parks over the last fifty years has been lacklustre at best. Look at the mass slaughter of Wood Bison in an effort to prevent mass deaths from tuberculosis, the ongoing issues in Banff and elsewhere with bears and other predators becoming all but dependant on human garbage and restaurant waste. I'd be the last person to say it was perfect. Hell, our parks system, now that the Warden program is being highly centralized and is cutting costs like crazy, isn't even all that good. In many ways, there IS alot to learn in terms of conservation from those below the border.
As for their numbers of certain game animals being the way they are; in many cases thats because they were deliberately brought back from the brink by organizations with the goal of preserving game. Reintroduction from other areas and the preservation of small, existing populations. Canada has the privilige of being one of the last developed nations with more or less intact larger mammalian species. Moose, Grizzly, Caribou, Elk. We are the country that other nations which have depleted and killed of their own native stocks come to, when they realize they've gone too far. Their animals aren't coming back, at best, they make due with a transplanted population.
If we lose ours, we wont get them back - not even a transplanted population.
When the Yanks think 'up north', they think of snowbound, forested wilderness, alive with animals which, for them and for the most part, are exotic in the local absence - Moose, etc as listed above. The one state they're going to see any of those in abundance is Alaska, and even then, its solely by virtue of its proximity to sparsely populated Northern BC and Alberta, where those animals continue to breed.
So they go to Alaska, or they come up here. To kill our animals, because they dont really have many left, if any.
You mentioned the Grizzlies in the states being at huntable levels. That would be in Montana, and those states immediately adjacent to Southern BC/AB. Same again; where are those animals chiefly breeding?
The main thing that bothers me about the article (aside from all the comments made immediately following it.) is, as others have said, that it is not a sustainable system. The prices may have changed, but basically the same Big Game Hunting Adventure attitude remains the same, with locals shortsightedly exploiting game for cash; that cash isn't going to bring the animals back when they're killed off - especially when its taking place in a park, a place which, at best, is a refuge for these animals from our various pressures. You want your kids to be able to hunt? to be able to know that out there, in their own country, that these animals are alive, well and prospering? Do more than just yearn to pull the trigger on Yogi. If you're going to take something, make sure what you're giving back is even greater.
Many provincial parks in BC allow hunting. The bears aren't being poached- no laws are being broken.
There is no conservation concern for grizzly bears in the area.
Grizzlies are under very strict harvest controls and they are not threatened.
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Wildlife management in National parks has been ATROCIOUS. There is basically no management, since no hunting is allowed.
The grizzlies arent' going to get killed off- Their population is increasing and territory expanding, so that other than heavily populated areas, grizzlies are in most of their traditional areas in BC.
Wildlife management in National parks has been ATROCIOUS. There is basically no management, since no hunting is allowed.
The grizzlies arent' going to get killed off- Their population is increasing and territory expanding, so that other than heavily populated areas, grizzlies are in most of their traditional areas in BC.
A quote from Bluemike807.
-----This article's main issue is that many grizzlies, which should be safe inside these parks - conserved for future generations (which includes hunters) - are instead being effectively poached by American hunters, aided by local guides. Its bad enough the Yanks have effectively killed off their own populations of Moose, Grizzly and many other game and non game species, but now they're threatening our wildlife. More than that, they're threatening OUR wildlife that is protected by region.
-------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who would make the above statement knows absolutely nothing about BC game and game laws.
Americans do not come up to BC and poach our grizzly bears.
No game animal in BC, or maybe anywhere else in Canada, is regulated as strictly as is grizzly bear. BC game biologists took several years to get a handle on the grizzly population. They used bait, with barb wire strung around it so the bear would leave some of his hair. They used DNA testing, in order to get the exact number of different bears that were in the area. They did this at many, critical locations.
They figure out statistically how many surplus bears can be harvested from the population, without reducing it. They take into consideration the considerable number of grizzlies that are killed each year as nuisance bears, or in self defence. When they finally arrive at a number that can safely be taken by hunters, they USE LESS THAN HALF THAT NUMBER, TO SET THE LIMITED ENTRY SEASONS.
Hunting is allowed in many provincial parks. Thus, grizzlies in parks that have a sustainable number of grizzly bears, can legally be hunted. Guides (outfitters) that operate in these protected areas, are allowed a quota of grizzly. Ameicans pay big money to try for one.
I will guess that you did not travel the BC hinterlands 50 or 60 years ago, when there were no roads over the entire north, except a crossing of the province by the Alaska Highway. I did.
And I am in agreement with every other old timer that was aware of the grizzly population, that I have ever talked with. There are now more grizzly bear in BC than there were 50 and 60 years ago.
Give our management people credit for doing a great job.
-----This article's main issue is that many grizzlies, which should be safe inside these parks - conserved for future generations (which includes hunters) - are instead being effectively poached by American hunters, aided by local guides. Its bad enough the Yanks have effectively killed off their own populations of Moose, Grizzly and many other game and non game species, but now they're threatening our wildlife. More than that, they're threatening OUR wildlife that is protected by region.
-------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who would make the above statement knows absolutely nothing about BC game and game laws.
Americans do not come up to BC and poach our grizzly bears.
No game animal in BC, or maybe anywhere else in Canada, is regulated as strictly as is grizzly bear. BC game biologists took several years to get a handle on the grizzly population. They used bait, with barb wire strung around it so the bear would leave some of his hair. They used DNA testing, in order to get the exact number of different bears that were in the area. They did this at many, critical locations.
They figure out statistically how many surplus bears can be harvested from the population, without reducing it. They take into consideration the considerable number of grizzlies that are killed each year as nuisance bears, or in self defence. When they finally arrive at a number that can safely be taken by hunters, they USE LESS THAN HALF THAT NUMBER, TO SET THE LIMITED ENTRY SEASONS.
Hunting is allowed in many provincial parks. Thus, grizzlies in parks that have a sustainable number of grizzly bears, can legally be hunted. Guides (outfitters) that operate in these protected areas, are allowed a quota of grizzly. Ameicans pay big money to try for one.
I will guess that you did not travel the BC hinterlands 50 or 60 years ago, when there were no roads over the entire north, except a crossing of the province by the Alaska Highway. I did.
And I am in agreement with every other old timer that was aware of the grizzly population, that I have ever talked with. There are now more grizzly bear in BC than there were 50 and 60 years ago.
Give our management people credit for doing a great job.
Great_White_hunter
Member
- Location
- Edmonton Alberta
Actually you mention a good point blue about the groups that brought those animals back, they were people who followed in the footsteps a Theodore Roosevelt, and every major organization that has either bought land or lobbied for national parks, hunting regulation, and game reserve have been HUNTING organizations. As a hunter you should know you respect your game more than you respect most people, they want these animals here a hell of a lot more than some suburbanite who cries out murderer every time you say your are a hunter. If it weren't for hunting organizations in the US there would not be any animals. And again you mentioned the parks as a refuge, even refuges need managing, and if hunting was not sustainable or being used for proper management of that natural resource it would just not be happening.
As a side note a couple of your posts make it seem like you think that these bears are being poached, trust me when I say that if this paper/article was about poaching they wouldn't have any numbers. This is a highly regulated hunt bent specifically on the sustainable use of these bears (when thinking of them as a resource), hence the knowledge of exact numbers harvested and precise locations of harvesting.
I just hope that the people in office here in Alberta start listening to evidence, both scientific and from landowners in the foothills who have been seeing more grizz now than have been seen in over 50 years, and open up the season again. Of course with mandatory reporting of harvest and possibly having mandatory measurement centers. I know with the antelope I tagged the info on location age, weight, etc. is being used for better management and that makes me sleep better at night (the belly full of antelope meat might help too).
As a side note a couple of your posts make it seem like you think that these bears are being poached, trust me when I say that if this paper/article was about poaching they wouldn't have any numbers. This is a highly regulated hunt bent specifically on the sustainable use of these bears (when thinking of them as a resource), hence the knowledge of exact numbers harvested and precise locations of harvesting.
I just hope that the people in office here in Alberta start listening to evidence, both scientific and from landowners in the foothills who have been seeing more grizz now than have been seen in over 50 years, and open up the season again. Of course with mandatory reporting of harvest and possibly having mandatory measurement centers. I know with the antelope I tagged the info on location age, weight, etc. is being used for better management and that makes me sleep better at night (the belly full of antelope meat might help too).
Great_White_hunter
Member
- Location
- Edmonton Alberta
So as a closer to everyone that has been posting lately I think more than a few people have taken offense to you calling many of the posters who have said "Suzuki is a blundering idiot who is making an ass of himself by trying to meddle in ecology, meteorology, conservation, and climatology, when at best he is really a mediocre geneticist" bigoted men, its best to do a little research before slinging mud like that, it really isn't good to step on peoples toes. He really became famous because he was a poster-child for the Canadian government after he had even mild success in his life after being a victim of the Japanese Internment during WWII. (As for the mediocre geneticist part my genetics prof and him worked together at the U of A and he REALLY thinks Suzuki is overrated)
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