Need some input... Due to a few shoulder issues I need to reduce the recoil that I put myself through at the range. I love milsurps and I've reloaded for many of them over the years... My issue now is I need to limit myself to 7.62x39 or 556 recoil level. Question is... Any of you have experience with military calibres and reduced loads for target shooting within 200 yards? I'm not looking for specific recipes but just ball park idea on calibres and powder!
Bad shoulders and recoil
- Thread starter GP11
- Start date
A good brake on 7.62x39 will allow you to shoot full power loads with little discomfort. A braked .223 shooting a minimum load will be virtually recoil free.
read and be enlightened.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads
Thanks... Any first hand experience? I tried it 4895 with 8mm Mauser in my 98k but I was unable to get a x39 recoil with any decent accuracy!
IMHO Trail Boss is a sure bet with both jacketed and lead projectiles.Follow Hodgdon formula for it and you will be golden.
If you decide to try lead Harris formula of 13 Gr Red Dot/Promo is hard to beat,every flaky shotgun powder I tried was +/- 0.5 Gr from there too.
If you decide to try lead Harris formula of 13 Gr Red Dot/Promo is hard to beat,every flaky shotgun powder I tried was +/- 0.5 Gr from there too.
GP11. I have only one suggestion for you. Cast bullets.
I recently had a shoulder replacement. I went through something very similar to what you describe. Last fall, even with a rifle I made up and special muzzle brake with very tight clearances of .002 inches from barrel muzzle to brake exit on a 7x57 loaded light with 120 Barnes TTSX bullets the recoil was extremely painful. In fact, just lifting the rifle to my shoulder caused a lot of pain. In my case the problem came about from joint deterioration from chemotherapy 17 years ago. My shoulders took the worst of it, then my knees. Replacement of my right shoulder joint has made life much more tolerable.
You don't mention whether your shoulder problem is deterioration or caused by damage.
What I found was I could tolerate light cast loads in just about any military surplus cartridge. One which really surprised me was the Kropatschek 8mm and the 303 Brit which both were once loaded with Black Powder and transitioned to smokeless powder later. Great rounds and in rifles with good bores, cast bullets, both with gas checks and paper patched shot very well.
I did two things to make this tolerable. One I started wearing a PAST recoil pad and in the case of the 303Brit installed a "SHORT" butt for shooting off the bench. Shooting from rests on the bench requires shorter butts. Same for prone shooting. In the case of the Kropatschek I shot it from a shooting stick while standing.
I went the black powder route because I could use a bulky F grade, which would fill the case to the base of the bullet with very slight compression while keeping pressures/velocities down and recoil minimal.
There is no reason this procedure can't be duplicated with any milsurp cartridge, including the 7.62x39, which I would advise be shot from a bolt action. I was never able to load the cartridge light enough to be tolerable and work the action without modification to the rifle by changing the bolt recoil spring and opening the size of the gas vent in the barrel. I didn't want to go that route so limited myself to bolt actions only.
I believe light, cast bullets will solve your immediate issues to the point the pain will be tolerable as long as you use properly fitting rifles and a Past Recoil Pad. As far as black powder goes, that was more for my own experimentation than any other reason. Lots of powders out there to play with to develop loads that are acceptable for your purposes that won't require you to modify your firearms in any manner.
I recently had a shoulder replacement. I went through something very similar to what you describe. Last fall, even with a rifle I made up and special muzzle brake with very tight clearances of .002 inches from barrel muzzle to brake exit on a 7x57 loaded light with 120 Barnes TTSX bullets the recoil was extremely painful. In fact, just lifting the rifle to my shoulder caused a lot of pain. In my case the problem came about from joint deterioration from chemotherapy 17 years ago. My shoulders took the worst of it, then my knees. Replacement of my right shoulder joint has made life much more tolerable.
You don't mention whether your shoulder problem is deterioration or caused by damage.
What I found was I could tolerate light cast loads in just about any military surplus cartridge. One which really surprised me was the Kropatschek 8mm and the 303 Brit which both were once loaded with Black Powder and transitioned to smokeless powder later. Great rounds and in rifles with good bores, cast bullets, both with gas checks and paper patched shot very well.
I did two things to make this tolerable. One I started wearing a PAST recoil pad and in the case of the 303Brit installed a "SHORT" butt for shooting off the bench. Shooting from rests on the bench requires shorter butts. Same for prone shooting. In the case of the Kropatschek I shot it from a shooting stick while standing.
I went the black powder route because I could use a bulky F grade, which would fill the case to the base of the bullet with very slight compression while keeping pressures/velocities down and recoil minimal.
There is no reason this procedure can't be duplicated with any milsurp cartridge, including the 7.62x39, which I would advise be shot from a bolt action. I was never able to load the cartridge light enough to be tolerable and work the action without modification to the rifle by changing the bolt recoil spring and opening the size of the gas vent in the barrel. I didn't want to go that route so limited myself to bolt actions only.
I believe light, cast bullets will solve your immediate issues to the point the pain will be tolerable as long as you use properly fitting rifles and a Past Recoil Pad. As far as black powder goes, that was more for my own experimentation than any other reason. Lots of powders out there to play with to develop loads that are acceptable for your purposes that won't require you to modify your firearms in any manner.
I've tried the reduced loads with H4895 in my 300wsm. Anything over 75% of max charge of H4895 gives me decent groups at 100m (~1MOA, using campro, so my guess is the bullet is what limits the accuracy).
The loads published by Hodgdon is 51 to 54.5 grains (velocity is 2919 to 3018fps). They suggest to use 60% or more of the max load of H4895 for reduced loads.
-If I use 34 grains of powder (62.4%), I obtain a velocity of 1951fps. The drop at 100m is insane and the group is big. I don't consider this a load that "works".
-If I use 40 grains of powder (73.4%), I obtain a velocity of 2213fps and 1.5MOA 5-shot group.
-If I use 45 grains of powder (82.7%), I obtain a velocity of 2508fps and 1.3MOA 5-shot group.
As for the recoil, it is much milder than a full load, but it's not like it became nonexistent magically. Maybe with the 303 or the 7.5x55, with light bullets like 125grn you might be able to have a low recoil and some accuracy.
I would start with the 7.5x55, 26 to 33grn of H4895. Work up the load until you get a decent accuracy or your shoulder begins to hurt. Then try the 303. Honestly I wouldn't have much hope to get a load for the 8mm mauser or the 7.62x54 that will be accurate and offer little recoil, but feel free to try.
I agree, Trail Boss is a miracle powder for the reduced recoil loads. Jacked or lead, Trail Boss doesn't care! Added bonus, it meters very well too in my Lee throwers!
I just blasted off 10 rounds each of 12 gr. 700X and Unique under a 175 gr #2 gas checked Lee in an old 8mm-06 98. Both accurate at 40 yds and virtually no recoil. Both were around 1450 fps. I could shoot those loads all day. 
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I have a torn rotator cuff and some tendon fraying in my shoulder. It's a mess. My specialist is a retard, long story short. Anyway due to that I am a fan of muzzle brakes and I run a limbsaver on my old battle axes. Takes away from the look of the rifle, but feels much better. If I could clamp on muzzle brakes on all my rifles I probably would.
I think you can also buy some kind of shoulder pad, I want to say for trap shooters? that should help tame some of the recoil.
I think you can also buy some kind of shoulder pad, I want to say for trap shooters? that should help tame some of the recoil.
I used RS4759 until it was discontinued and now use Trail Boss for case forming and reduced loads.
Below .312 Hornady pistol bullets for fire forming the .303 British cases and plinking rounds make the brass butt plate much softer.
Don't forget a rubber o-ring to keep the case pushed against the bolt face when fire forming.
Below .312 Hornady pistol bullets for fire forming the .303 British cases and plinking rounds make the brass butt plate much softer.
Don't forget a rubber o-ring to keep the case pushed against the bolt face when fire forming.
This may sound odd and the first few times you try it things will be weird, but have you tried shooting off your other shoulder and keeping both your eyes open? I also have shoulder issues, 3 1/2" turkey loads make my arm go numb. I have shot off the wrong shoulder just in case an animal comes in from the wrong direction, it can be awkward as heck to start out with but may be an option for you.
FWIW, I've used very light loads, relatively, in my Nork M14 and it still functions at 99%. This was with a cast bullet and about 28 grains of 3031. Over four range sessions and with out cleaning, I fired 160+ rounds with only 2 failures to feed. One may have been due to my fingers on the op-rod. A friend was amazed at how little recoil there was. It still shot into 5 inches at 100 yards, which is all I can expect with a post front sight these days.
there are two parts to your quest. Low recoil and accuracy.
When my son was 10 he was shooting a light 308 rifle in competition to 600 yards. He needed mild recoil and accuracy.
The solution was the Sierra 125 gr flat base soft point. It was very accurate. I loaded it with around 36 gr of 4995, if my foggy memory is correct.
When my son was 10 he was shooting a light 308 rifle in competition to 600 yards. He needed mild recoil and accuracy.
The solution was the Sierra 125 gr flat base soft point. It was very accurate. I loaded it with around 36 gr of 4995, if my foggy memory is correct.
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Cst bullets and pistol powders can cut recoil easily by half or more.
For instance according to online recoilcalculators, an 8 lb rifle firing a 180 gr bullet would have recoil as follows:
1500 fps - 15 gr powder: 5-6 ft/lbs recoil (roughly .223 Rem recoil level)
2500 fps - 40 gr powder: 15-16 ft/lbs recoil
The downside to reduced loadings is that you might find the reduced load POI doesn't fall within the adjustment range of your iron sights.
I know this is not a reloading solution but consider a good muzzle break. I have them on several heavy recoil guns and they really do an amazing job on reducing felt recoil. The calibers I have them on are 339 Edge, 7 Rem Mag, 375 Ruger. None feel much more than a standard 308 at this point.
You should be able to reduce a 30-06 or 308 to 7.62x39 or less.
It is louder but I am already wearing hearing protection so it really does not matter to me.
You should be able to reduce a 30-06 or 308 to 7.62x39 or less.
It is louder but I am already wearing hearing protection so it really does not matter to me.
