Any GOOD opinons on gain twist barrels vs reg twist barrels ? Pros & Cons of both would be appreciated !
Also preferred rifling - cut or button or ??
s RJ 
Also preferred rifling - cut or button or ??
s RJ 
Barrel TWIST
- Thread starter remington jim
- Start date
There is some pretty good info about the pros and cons of both on the Border Barrels website... They are in Scottland I believe and they make both button and cut rifled barrels, so the bias should be minimal in my opinion... I read the articles but can't recall all of the details...
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Ron Smith of Wimborne AB makes gain twist barrels using the Cut rifling method. It is impossible to make an accurate gain twist barrel with a button, people have tried, and failed. There are no cons to gain twist, but there are a few distinct benefits.
Firstly, a gain twist barrel will usually net you more velocity when hand-loading due to a truncation of the pressure curve. Instead of ramming the bullet into a steep twist right off the bat, the bullet starts off in almost straight rifling and slowly gains rotational speed. Think of it this way, if you are skateboarding, would you rather hit a linear ramp that forms a sharp corner with the ground, or have a nice smooth and rounded tansition between ramp and gound. Similar principal in a rifle barrel, the abrupt start of conventional rifling deforms the bullet and forces it to instantly match the angle of the grooves, whereas gain twist alows the bullet to coast and gradually accelerate to match the final angle of the grooves. If this does not make sense, I can show the math as well as make some diagrams.
Secondly, you have a perfect gas seal down the entire length of the barrel. Decause the cutter is a fixed width, and it accelerates in rotational speed, the groove is cuts gets thinner (less wide) as the rotational speed increases. Coupled with a groove diameter that tapers about .0005" from breech to muzzle means that 100% of the gas is trapped behind the bullet at all times, which potentially and theoretically gains you some velocity.
Thirdly, Gain twist, especially Ron's, shoot straight cast boolit's better than any other. Can't say why exactly, but for something that supposedly cannot shoot, his barrels sure print tiny groups.
Fourthly, the best barrels, gain twist or otherwise are made right here in Canada. No need to deal with the endless sea of BS when trying to custom order a barrel from the states. Give Ron a call (403-631-2405) and ask him why he makes gain twist barrels. He'll likely sum it up better than my memory can.
If you have any questions, PM me and I'll do what I can. If I can;t help, call Ron
Firstly, a gain twist barrel will usually net you more velocity when hand-loading due to a truncation of the pressure curve. Instead of ramming the bullet into a steep twist right off the bat, the bullet starts off in almost straight rifling and slowly gains rotational speed. Think of it this way, if you are skateboarding, would you rather hit a linear ramp that forms a sharp corner with the ground, or have a nice smooth and rounded tansition between ramp and gound. Similar principal in a rifle barrel, the abrupt start of conventional rifling deforms the bullet and forces it to instantly match the angle of the grooves, whereas gain twist alows the bullet to coast and gradually accelerate to match the final angle of the grooves. If this does not make sense, I can show the math as well as make some diagrams.
Secondly, you have a perfect gas seal down the entire length of the barrel. Decause the cutter is a fixed width, and it accelerates in rotational speed, the groove is cuts gets thinner (less wide) as the rotational speed increases. Coupled with a groove diameter that tapers about .0005" from breech to muzzle means that 100% of the gas is trapped behind the bullet at all times, which potentially and theoretically gains you some velocity.
Thirdly, Gain twist, especially Ron's, shoot straight cast boolit's better than any other. Can't say why exactly, but for something that supposedly cannot shoot, his barrels sure print tiny groups.
Fourthly, the best barrels, gain twist or otherwise are made right here in Canada. No need to deal with the endless sea of BS when trying to custom order a barrel from the states. Give Ron a call (403-631-2405) and ask him why he makes gain twist barrels. He'll likely sum it up better than my memory can.
If you have any questions, PM me and I'll do what I can. If I can;t help, call Ron
A cut rifled gain twist barrel was really invented for lead bullets... it will get better performance than any other type of barrel with solid unjacketed lead bullets... and Ron makes them as well as anyone.
It probably isn't quite as accurate as conventional barrels in short range Benchrest.
It probably isn't quite as accurate as conventional barrels in short range Benchrest.
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Why do you say that they are not as accurate as a conventionally rifled barrel?
In short range Benchrest standard twist barrels have proven to be the most accurate...
The theory as I know it, is the gain twist engraves the bullet differently as it proceeds down the barrel... kind of like distorting it.
I am referring to accuracy that the vast majority of shooters never obtain...
I am not aware of any gain twist barrels used in short range Benchrest competition.
Nothing shoots solid lead bullets better than a properly made gain twist barrel... as Ron makes...
Tony Boyer did very well with a gain twist at the IBS nationals in 2008 , I know most BR shooters have been shooting fixed twist rifling but from what I have been reading a lot of guys are experimenting with gain twist and liking it.
Some gain twists change by as much as double the twist rate aparently this works good with cast bullets while other gain twist might only change a little like from 10-8 twist .
I am setting up to make rifle barrels I have my drilling and reaming machine ready to drill in a few weeks , I am building a rifling machine that will cut regular and gain twist.
I am anxious to experiment with the gain twist to be honest I think it has the potential to be very accurate even with jacketed bullets.
Some gain twists change by as much as double the twist rate aparently this works good with cast bullets while other gain twist might only change a little like from 10-8 twist .
I am setting up to make rifle barrels I have my drilling and reaming machine ready to drill in a few weeks , I am building a rifling machine that will cut regular and gain twist.
I am anxious to experiment with the gain twist to be honest I think it has the potential to be very accurate even with jacketed bullets.
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
The vast majority of Ron's barrels approximately double in twist rate, though just about any rate can be made with his machine. If you get a 32" blank (34" overall) the grooves right at the breech will be dead straight. Only for an instant, mind you, but the cutter does advance with minute rotation for the first 1/4" or so.
I happen to have a left hand twist barrel. As far as i know nobody else did it except Al Peterson. Rifles shot very well, couple of different stories as to why left twist. Depended in how much Al had to drink, he loved his rum. Had many a drink at the Rifle Ranch.
Had many a drink at the Rifle Ranch.
Smith barrels
Ive been reading this thread with great interest. As Ron is a long time friend and Ive spent more time in his shop then most.
Most comments are very correct.
But the last 3 years of long range sniper military members shoot in Colorado have been won with a gain twist Smith barrel in 6.5 284 by C. Grims of Golden.
I spoke to Connie at Raton last fall and he explained that he saw no difference in straight twist Smith Barrel from long range as far as accuracy, but the gain twist barrel life was a little more then twice the number of rounds.
The physics involved in gain versus straight would suggest the pressure curve would be less sudden with a gain thus causing less damage to the throat area.
Basically those who have bothered to try a gain twist barrel seem to be return customers. And the greater majority of Ron's barrels going out the door are for
jacketed bullets and gain twist.
As far a left hand twist, Ron makes those for anyone who wants them its a simple change in his rifleing machine to go from right to left.
sst
Ive been reading this thread with great interest. As Ron is a long time friend and Ive spent more time in his shop then most.
Most comments are very correct.
But the last 3 years of long range sniper military members shoot in Colorado have been won with a gain twist Smith barrel in 6.5 284 by C. Grims of Golden.
I spoke to Connie at Raton last fall and he explained that he saw no difference in straight twist Smith Barrel from long range as far as accuracy, but the gain twist barrel life was a little more then twice the number of rounds.
The physics involved in gain versus straight would suggest the pressure curve would be less sudden with a gain thus causing less damage to the throat area.
Basically those who have bothered to try a gain twist barrel seem to be return customers. And the greater majority of Ron's barrels going out the door are for
jacketed bullets and gain twist.
As far a left hand twist, Ron makes those for anyone who wants them its a simple change in his rifleing machine to go from right to left.
sst
Barrel twist
Hi Thanks for your feedback - I spoke with Ron yesterday - very nice fellow !- i want to try a gain twist for sure- i have read everything i can find on barrels lately and i see pros and cons - But most are just opinons and we all know about them -don`t we ! I myself are thinkin PRO !
Cheers RJ
Hi Thanks for your feedback - I spoke with Ron yesterday - very nice fellow !- i want to try a gain twist for sure- i have read everything i can find on barrels lately and i see pros and cons - But most are just opinons and we all know about them -don`t we ! I myself are thinkin PRO !
Cheers RJ
I have a 338 cal gain twist blank on order from Ron right now. Cant wait to get it spun onto my action for a 338 Edge build. If it shoots well (which it mostly likely will), I'll replace the short stubby factory barrel on my 338 lapua with much longer RKS barrel.
Tom- We may have met at one time, Likewise I've known Ron for many years and have used his barrels and have had my ass kicked by him at a few matches.
I really do believe there is a gain in useful barrel life with the gaintwist. My belief is that they are also more forgiving in load development ie, they have a sweet spot over a greater velocity range than a standard twist barrel. I've had Ron's barrels in .223, 22-250, 308, 6mm-250 and all performed exceedingly well. His cast bullet .32 cal Schutzen rifle barrels have no peer. To see soem of the 200 yard targets fired by competitors using them would amaze a lot of people unfamiliar with the accuracy potential of these rifles.
Rks
Ron was known locally for making barrels for a few guys for hunting rifles and for a few of us who were shooting black powder in the late 60's and 70's but in the 80's about 10 of us started shooting the schultzen game just for fun. And to see how accurate we could shoot lead bullets with modern smokeless powder. In 1987 a few of us found enough courage to make the trip to Golden Colorado for the Coors Cup. When we left Ron said if one of us qualify for the main event, we would be successful. Well all 5 of us qualified and one of us qualified number one over all, of the 175 shoots trying out. Of course the guys south of the boarder were surprised to have us show up, but were really shocked with the accuracy of the barrels we all used. And finding out they were made by a farmer in Alberta... Well that really was the start of RKS barrels and the orders started coming in. And that part of his barrel making grows yet in 2012. At about that time Ron started making gain twist just to see if things might be better...
Gain twist was made popular by Harry Pope and really died out after his passing but Ron was of the belief that due to some physics of his barrels there is gains to be made not only with lead bullets but with jacketed bullets. Keeping in mind that smokeless powder was in its infancy when the gain twist barrels sort of died out.
It's general accepted by most gun experts is that gain twist was historically good with lead bullets but not with jacketed ones.
Well first off not a lot of very good bench rest shooters have tried a Smith barrel, I don't know about any other barrels made by other barrel makers but I do know Ron's, and Ill try to just make a couple of simple points and everyone can make up their own decisions. First off all of Ron's barrels have a slight choke at the muzzle end and due to the physics of how his single point cutter works the grooves of his gain barrels narrow slightly from breech to muzzle.
So combining the fact that the twist increases and the grooves narrow with the choke, there is a constant increase in the seal being applied to the bullet as the bullet travels down the barrel.
So as most experts will tell you a perfect seal of a bullet is the most important requirement in accuracy.
The point about the sweet spot for accuracy being more forgiving with a gain twist has been mentioned by many users including myself. Why I'm not sure but I'm sure some may have an idea.
Looking at bullets under a microscope there is no deformity to the bullets as some have suggested due to the twist changing and thus causing some stripping of groove track. But that might be not noted in Ron's barrels due to the fact that his grooves narrow as the twist increases, making a tighter seal.
Now on a lighter note last winter I was at Ron's and told him of a long time joke I wanted to pull and that was to make a barrel out of re-bar and put it on a gun just for fun...... Well after far to many tastes of single malt, we drilled and reamed a piece of re-bar I had my daughter locate....... Well to make a long story short we have never had more fun with any gun.... At gun shows its a hit with people actually wondering why we would finish a barrel to look like re-bar and others saying how ugly that gun is.
And I was crazy enough to work up a load for it and to be honest its the best bench gun I ever owned and at Raton New Mexico I shot a 250 which is a perfect target. And a fellow from California wrote a article about a couple of goofs from Alberta making a barrel out of re-bar and whipping a lot of very expensive bench guns. This article will be published in the March issue of Precision Shooting. So who knows we may have just started the next step in RKS barrel making....
The next time you talk to Ron ask him about making a re-bar barrel ... you'll make his day I'm sure...
Have fun guys hope I shed some light without over doing it...
Thnx
SST
Ron was known locally for making barrels for a few guys for hunting rifles and for a few of us who were shooting black powder in the late 60's and 70's but in the 80's about 10 of us started shooting the schultzen game just for fun. And to see how accurate we could shoot lead bullets with modern smokeless powder. In 1987 a few of us found enough courage to make the trip to Golden Colorado for the Coors Cup. When we left Ron said if one of us qualify for the main event, we would be successful. Well all 5 of us qualified and one of us qualified number one over all, of the 175 shoots trying out. Of course the guys south of the boarder were surprised to have us show up, but were really shocked with the accuracy of the barrels we all used. And finding out they were made by a farmer in Alberta... Well that really was the start of RKS barrels and the orders started coming in. And that part of his barrel making grows yet in 2012. At about that time Ron started making gain twist just to see if things might be better...
Gain twist was made popular by Harry Pope and really died out after his passing but Ron was of the belief that due to some physics of his barrels there is gains to be made not only with lead bullets but with jacketed bullets. Keeping in mind that smokeless powder was in its infancy when the gain twist barrels sort of died out.
It's general accepted by most gun experts is that gain twist was historically good with lead bullets but not with jacketed ones.
Well first off not a lot of very good bench rest shooters have tried a Smith barrel, I don't know about any other barrels made by other barrel makers but I do know Ron's, and Ill try to just make a couple of simple points and everyone can make up their own decisions. First off all of Ron's barrels have a slight choke at the muzzle end and due to the physics of how his single point cutter works the grooves of his gain barrels narrow slightly from breech to muzzle.
So combining the fact that the twist increases and the grooves narrow with the choke, there is a constant increase in the seal being applied to the bullet as the bullet travels down the barrel.
So as most experts will tell you a perfect seal of a bullet is the most important requirement in accuracy.
The point about the sweet spot for accuracy being more forgiving with a gain twist has been mentioned by many users including myself. Why I'm not sure but I'm sure some may have an idea.
Looking at bullets under a microscope there is no deformity to the bullets as some have suggested due to the twist changing and thus causing some stripping of groove track. But that might be not noted in Ron's barrels due to the fact that his grooves narrow as the twist increases, making a tighter seal.
Now on a lighter note last winter I was at Ron's and told him of a long time joke I wanted to pull and that was to make a barrel out of re-bar and put it on a gun just for fun...... Well after far to many tastes of single malt, we drilled and reamed a piece of re-bar I had my daughter locate....... Well to make a long story short we have never had more fun with any gun.... At gun shows its a hit with people actually wondering why we would finish a barrel to look like re-bar and others saying how ugly that gun is.
And I was crazy enough to work up a load for it and to be honest its the best bench gun I ever owned and at Raton New Mexico I shot a 250 which is a perfect target. And a fellow from California wrote a article about a couple of goofs from Alberta making a barrel out of re-bar and whipping a lot of very expensive bench guns. This article will be published in the March issue of Precision Shooting. So who knows we may have just started the next step in RKS barrel making....
The next time you talk to Ron ask him about making a re-bar barrel ... you'll make his day I'm sure...
Have fun guys hope I shed some light without over doing it...
Thnx
SST
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Great write-up SST. Thanks for all the info, and the heads up for the rebar rifle article!
The most accurate, and easiest-to-develop-a-load-for rifle I ever saw was a Husqvarna 8000 push feed with a Douglas 7mm Rem Mag barrel that Ron rebored to 358 Norma Mag for River Rat on the board here. Every load we tried shot like a match rifle. Not a single load with any bullet or powder shot over an inch. It was just amazing. Hunting bullets were shooting 3/8 and 1/2" groups, and still are!
The rifle has a 28-14 gain twist.
Ted
The most accurate, and easiest-to-develop-a-load-for rifle I ever saw was a Husqvarna 8000 push feed with a Douglas 7mm Rem Mag barrel that Ron rebored to 358 Norma Mag for River Rat on the board here. Every load we tried shot like a match rifle. Not a single load with any bullet or powder shot over an inch. It was just amazing. Hunting bullets were shooting 3/8 and 1/2" groups, and still are!
The rifle has a 28-14 gain twist.
Ted
Gain twist cast bullets
These are bullets dug from the dirt after a cast bullet benchrest match. They are from a Jones mould for the 32 Miller shot from a gain twist barrel. Notice how the grooves are wider at the bottom and top and narrower in the middle. You would think that that would be hostile to the bullet, but it works!
These are bullets dug from the dirt after a cast bullet benchrest match. They are from a Jones mould for the 32 Miller shot from a gain twist barrel. Notice how the grooves are wider at the bottom and top and narrower in the middle. You would think that that would be hostile to the bullet, but it works!
