Belle of the ball!!

straightshooter

straightshooter

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Please forgive my enthusiasm. I know it will be sickening to some of you, but I can't help being excited by this latest score!! At the Calgary gun show last week, I was wandering around on the second day (I had already seen all the guns in the show - I thought) when I came across what was, IMHO, the buy of the whole show. I found an English SXS made by Saxton in 20 gauge. The gun is in fabulous condition (especially for a gun that's at least 106 years old). This maker is so obscure, there's only a half dozen mentions of them on the entire www and half of those are of a Belgian maker by the same name.

The British proof marks on this beauty are undeniable, though. The best part is that I scooped her for less than 1/4 of what I estimate she's worth in today's market and about 1/120th of what it would cost to have a similar gun made today. I'm in the process of seeking expert opinions on the gun. Can't wait to hear what they have to say.

Here's a couple of pics to whet your whistle:

Saxton.JPG


S2.JPG


S3.JPG


S4.JPG
 
Doesn't sicken me at all because that gun is going to a home where it will be appreciated. Congratulations. You are on a roll. This gun, that Fox you posted a while ago. Well done.
 
Congrats!!! That's beautiful. I have a Clayborough and sons DOM 1860 -1870 ish that has that same brass shield on the bottom of the buttstock. Do you know what purpose it serves? Maybe just dress it up a bit or to have the owners initials etched in? If anyone finds that sickening, TOO BAD!!! Let's have some more.
 
Awesome find. Now I am sorry I never made it up to the show. Now the real question, are you going to hunt with it? Please tell me it isn't just going to go in your safe to be fondled once in a while.

Ian
 
Thanks, Claybuster, I can't believe my luck, either. You're right about the medallion, too, of course.

This example, I believe was a gift to someone on a special occasion. The medallion has ornately engraved initials AND the date - Sep. 7, 1904. While the gift was made on that date, I don't believe this gun was made on that date (in fact, I'm quite sure it wasn't).

Pudelpointer, you may rest assured that she'll get her turn in the covey every year. I haven't fired her yet because I need to find out what kind of pressures Gamebore 20 gauge 2 1/2" shells generate. I've got lots of those. But, the Birmingham proofs on this sweetheart are black powder proofs (Which is why I'm so sure she was lovingly carved out of solid stock with hundreds of hours of enjoyment for skilled craftsmen... oops, I was slipping off into rapture there. I'm okay, now.). I may have to cook up some black powder loads or some low pressure nitro loads.
 
Gorgeous, simply gorgeous. Must be delightful to swing and carry. What does it weight? Choked? And that rounded pistol grip is sooooo elegant.
 
A vintage 20ga is a very nice find indeed, congrats!

So what's the story here......I hope (for your sake) that your better half is aware of all those deals you have been filling your gun safe with lately :D :D
 
What is it chambered for 2 1/2" ? Are the barrels Damascas or Twist steel ? Nice hammergun. :)
 
The barrels are laminated steel (twist). It's amazing how well the finish survived. The pictures don't do it justice - the twist pattern is vivid throughout, except for near the forend where the shooter's hands rest. Chambers are cut for 2 1/2". Comes in at 2652 grams, which works out to just over 5.85 lbs or about 5 Lbs., 13.5 oz.

I'll post the chokes, once I get actual bore measurements, rather than assuming nominal bore values. I can run the numbers through Don Amos' formula for handling characteristics while I'm at it.

I've learned a couple of new things about the maker. There were, indeed, several users of the name over the years. Guns bearing Belgian proof marks were low quality fare, some of which ended up as hardware store guns in the U.S. Guns bearing Birmingham proof marks were made by a house in London considered one of the British "best gun" makers. (this example is clearly nowhere near the highest grade you'd expect from such a maker, but a fine firearm nonetheless). There is nothing known about models, production volumes, serial numbers, or anything else about the firm.

I took a few shots of the medallion, but it's hopeless - I'll have to do it in natural light, otherwise all I get is reflection from the flash. I'll grab a shot of the whole gun at the same time.

Ashan, it was hard for her to complain. She was there. We shared a table; I had some guns on the table and she sold camo fleece that she makes. She made a bunch of money, I spent a bunch. If we do it again next year, it becomes a tradition...;)
 
OK, you guys know more about shotguns than I do, so I have a question.
What is the difference, if any, between Damascus, Twisted, and Laminated steel?
Also, I have read somewhere that some old makers actually dressed up solid steel barrels to look like Damascus, with the spiral "fingerprint" pattern, as this was desirable at the time. If so, how would I tell if it was real or imitation Damascus?

I bought an old beater SxS exposed hammer gun a while back. It has no Maker on it, but Belgian proofs under the barrel, hidden by the forearm.
it does say FINE DAMASCUS in between the barrels, but overall, the gun is not "fine".

Thanks.
 
tootall said:
OK, you guys know more about shotguns than I do, so I have a question.
What is the difference, if any, between Damascus, Twisted, and Laminated steel?
Also, I have read somewhere that some old makers actually dressed up solid steel barrels to look like Damascus, with the spiral "fingerprint" pattern, as this was desirable at the time. If so, how would I tell if it was real or imitation Damascus?

I bought an old beater SxS exposed hammer gun a while back. It has no Maker on it, but Belgian proofs under the barrel, hidden by the forearm.
it does say FINE DAMASCUS in between the barrels, but overall, the gun is not "fine".

Thanks.
Click to expand...
I have read that when fluid steel barrels first hit the market, some shooters thought damascus, twist etc. were the superior product and fluid steel barrels didn't sell well and the manufacturers came out with a fluid steel look a like.I also read that the pattern was acid etched on to the metal to make it look damascus.I'm no expert on damascus or twist steel, someone can correct me, but i believe they are basically one of the same.Heated steel and iron strips are wound around a mandrel and forge welded together..That's what i've read, now someone who really knows can correct me.
 
12magnum said:
I have read that when fluid steel barrels first hit the market, some shooters thought damascus, twist etc. were the superior product and fluid steel barrels didn't sell well and the manufacturers came out with a fluid steel look a like.I also read that the pattern was acid etched on to the metal to make it look damascus.I'm no expert on damascus or twist steel, someone can correct me, but i believe they are basically one of the same.Heated steel and iron strips are wound around a mandrel and forge welded together..That's what i've read, now someone who really knows can correct me.
Click to expand...

In fact, damascus barrels were superior to the fluid steel barrels of the time (and some of those currently available). The only reason damascus has fallen out of favor is that it's prohibitively expensive due to the high labor component to manufacturing them. If money is no object, the well healed still prefer damascus to fluid steel.

Another reason damascus lost popularity is that the method produces barrels that have more microscopic seams. Back in the day of corrosive powders, this meant that damascus guns that were improperly cared for could rust more readily than fluid steel models. Over the years, we've been conditioned to be wary of old guns, most of which were damascus barrelled.

I'm no expert either, but I believe you're correct in that the basic principle for damascus, laminate, twist, etc. is the same - they're all produced by pounding strips of material in a pattern around a mandril. The differences, I believe, are the materials and the pattern employed.
 
straightshooter said:
In fact, damascus barrels were superior to the fluid steel barrels of the time (and some of those currently available). The only reason damascus has fallen out of favor is that it's prohibitively expensive due to the high labor component to manufacturing them. If money is no object, the well healed still prefer damascus to fluid steel.

Another reason damascus lost popularity is that the method produces barrels that have more microscopic seams. Back in the day of corrosive powders, this meant that damascus guns that were improperly cared for could rust more readily than fluid steel models. Over the years, we've been conditioned to be wary of old guns, most of which were damascus barrelled.

I'm no expert either, but I believe you're correct in that the basic principle for damascus, laminate, twist, etc. is the same - they're all produced by pounding strips of material in a pattern around a mandril. The differences, I believe, are the materials and the pattern employed.
Click to expand...
Yes i've heard of cases where the seams and parts of the barrels were severly corroded due to the sulphur component in black powder.To give shooters of that era their due, they didn't have the cleaning compound we do today, other than hot soapy water, and perhaps they weren't as knowledgeable about corrosive powders.I've heard of cases where even fluid steel breach loaders were corroded from shooting both balck and smokless powders, when smokeless first came out and shooters sometimes went back and forth between the two. Anyway that saxton is one nice gun.
 
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