Berger VLD 168GR Match bullets + M14? Some tech questions/observations..

[mctonyb]

To the experienced reloaders;

I just picked up a box of these Berger VLD .308 168GR Match Grade bullets (PN: 308168V) by mistake (when the staff at Epp's gave them to me I assumed they were just the 168GR HPBT) and wanted to know everyone's thoughts on using them.

I've been doing lots of reading on the VLD-type bullets and have seen how well they perform at long range because of their extremely low drag coefficient. The flip-side to this is that they are designed to be loaded as close to the rifling as possible, preferably touching the rifling. It then states on the Berger site that as much as .150" off the rifling will work with small increments off the rifling tested to that maximum.

So this brings me to "test" what my OAL should be if the bullet touches the rifling on my gun and after a few tests of using a dummy cartridge (no powder/primer), inserting a bullet into it and then putting it into the barrel to "size" it to my exact gun's barrel, I get an average cartridge length of 2.950~" which is too long to fit into a M14 magazine. Using Berger's website recommendations of the bullet not being more than .150" off the rifling, I end up at the tried-and-trued M14 OAL of 2.8".

I think going too much over the 2.8" length will result in magazine/feeding problems so I'm not sure I want to go there.

After this incredibly long post, I guess I really want to know what/if anyone has had experience with these bullets and the M14? Is it worth it to load up some rounds, or should I maybe bite-the-bullet (pun) and use something else? I'm, really just experimenting with new loads for the gun..

Thanks for any input and my apologies for the incredibly long post!

 

[njohnson]

I had an M1A built with a Krieger barrel and a match ( obermeyer) chamber that I fired some Berger 185 VLDs through. I found that they shot best when loaded to within 5 thou of the rifling-oal to bullet tip was approx 2.920" in my rifle. Sierra MKs were loaded to 2.800"

As you say the OAL ends up being in excess of magazine length, but as I only shot these single feed for slow fire stages it wasn't an issue for me. That's generally the trade off with VLD type bullets. Try shooting them at magazine length, who knows they might shoot fine in your rifle.

I never had a chance to shoot the rifle farther than 600 yds, so they were really unnecessary for what I was doing, and Sierra MKs shot great, and were not fussy about OAL. My take on it is that unless you are shooting 600+ yards, or find that they shoot tighter than anything else in your rifle, that VLD bullets offer little gain over a std HPBT type bullet in an MIA/M14.

That said its always fun to experiment.

 

[mctonyb]

I appreciate the reply.

I think I may make up some "single-shot" loads with the VLD's much like you did and see what happens. I've never shot the rifle single-shot (ie. closing the bolt on a hand-fed cartridge) as I always heard the M14 was notorious for slam-fires when loaded that way? Feedback please?!

With the extra room in the case with these long loads, did you at all change the amount of powder you put in there? I'm consistently using around 41Gr of the 4895's with the M14 but I'm not sure if that'll be too much with the long cartridge?

Thanks again.

I had an M1A built with a Krieger barrel and a match ( obermeyer) chamber that I fired some Berger 185 VLDs through. I found that they shot best when loaded to within 5 thou of the rifling-oal to bullet tip was approx 2.920" in my rifle. Sierra MKs were loaded to 2.800"

As you say the OAL ends up being in excess of magazine length, but as I only shot these single feed for slow fire stages it wasn't an issue for me. That's generally the trade off with VLD type bullets. Try shooting them at magazine length, who knows they might shoot fine in your rifle.

I never had a chance to shoot the rifle farther than 600 yds, so they were really unnecessary for what I was doing, and Sierra MKs shot great, and were not fussy about OAL. My take on it is that unless you are shooting 600+ yards, or find that they shoot tighter than anything else in your rifle, that VLD bullets offer little gain over a std HPBT type bullet in an MIA/M14.

That said its always fun to experiment.

 

[njohnson]

For single feeding I used a couple of different methods, both involved essentially loading the cartridge into the feed lips of the magazine ( while still in the rifle) while the bolt was held back.

Just clip the round into the feed lips of the magazine, just like you would when loading the mag, except its still in the rifle-be careful not to push on the op rod handle and release the bolt during loading as this will leave you with very sore thumb!

Don't just lay the loaded round on the top of the magazine and let the bolt fly closed. If you clip the round into the top of the magazine the force required to feed it slows the bolt down-just like when it feeds the last round in any magazine.

As for reputation for slam fires, that is pretty standard for autoloaders. Make sure all your primers are set the standard depth, just below flush as per normal reloading quality checks( Can't remember the actual measurement right now).

41 grns of 4895 is exactly what I used with 168/175 SMK's and it shot nice groups with that.

With the 185 VLDs I used completely different powders ( 4064,Varget and tried N140) You want to be careful that you don't use too slow a powder in a gas operated rifle because the pressure will be too high when the bullet reaches the gas port in the barrel and it will beat the gun up ( or worse!)

Your VLDs are the same weight (168 gr) so I would stick with the H4895 that you are using now. It might be considered old school but if it shoots good groups, for me thats really the major consideration for 600 yds and under. Try a chronograph and keep an eye on the brass and primer appearance. All the usual caveats apply.

 

[roberti11]

I have worked up a lot of loads with my M14. As you can see below I have limited my COL to 2.8 so that I would not have a problem with Mag. length.

Some of my best loads were with Berger VLD's. In my bolt rifle I load these to the lands, and this gives me an additional 0.3 MOA. Given all the factors that will contribute to accuracy loss in an M14, the additional benefit of using a long COL is probably not worth the downside.

 

[mctonyb]

Thanks for the tips on the loading njohnson. I'm definitely going to give that a try with some of my "custom" long loads. I really appreciate the tech you've provided. I can't believe you went up to a 185GR bullet in the ol' M14! How'd the gun take that heavy of a bullet? I guess you compensated a bit with the powder choice.

Wow, what a chart roberti11!! That's awesome! Thanks a bundle!

Couple questions for you; I'm guessing the 1:12 barrel is a factory barrel of some sorts? Is the 1:10 barrel a Krieger? Any other specs on the gun or pics?

I'm impressed with the results you've achieved with that barrel, those are some good loads and groups! I'm kinda discouraged about the results with the 1:12 barrel though! I've fluked out a couple times and managed to get some sub-MOA groups with my loads (similar to your 155GR Sierra Palma load), but it's never been consistent.

I'm trying every bullet under the sun to hopefully come up with something good. I plan on going with a Krieger barrel with a TRW or SA bolt in the future, I think it will help tighten things up substantially.

 

[roberti11]

Thanks for the tips on the loading njohnson. I'm definitely going to give that a try with some of my "custom" long loads. I really appreciate the tech you've provided. I can't believe you went up to a 185GR bullet in the ol' M14! How'd the gun take that heavy of a bullet? I guess you compensated a bit with the powder choice.

Wow, what a chart roberti11!! That's awesome! Thanks a bundle!

Couple questions for you; I'm guessing the 1:12 barrel is a factory barrel of some sorts? Is the 1:10 barrel a Krieger? Any other specs on the gun or pics?

I'm impressed with the results you've achieved with that barrel, those are some good loads and groups! I'm kinda discouraged about the results with the 1:12 barrel though! I've fluked out a couple times and managed to get some sub-MOA groups with my loads (similar to your 155GR Sierra Palma load), but it's never been consistent.

I'm trying every bullet under the sun to hopefully come up with something good. I plan on going with a Krieger barrel with a TRW or SA bolt in the future, I think it will help tighten things up substantially.

The 1:12 is a tuned (Hungry style) factory norc. The 1:10 is a norc receiver, Douglas heavy bbl, NM heavy stock, TRW bolt, and tuned gas system.

Having said that, you will still see a difference using the same rifle and the same bullet but a different powder. Each of those loads is the best for a loading ladder using a particular bullet, COL of 2.8.

With an M14 my method is to pick a bullet, keep the COL at 2.8 and then start with a powder load that mimics what I call my standard reference load.

This load is IMR4895 41gn and a SMK 168gn #2200 bullet.

I use quickload to estimate a similar pressure for any new bullet/powder combination. With that as my starting point I create a ladder with powder wts that bracket my reference load, and look for the best shooting load. If you are not systematic you will hit good loads only by accident.