Best Bolt Action Milsurp

[tokguy]

Hear! Hear!
M95 served great in two World Wars, I suspect nobody told those Mannlichers they lack something. While I can understand that in theory one can find both disadvantages and advantages for any kind of bolt system, in practice it's all about implementation. And M95 was very good rifle.

My son has one in 8 x 57. Quite an average rifle IMO; '0' panache whatsoever.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Hear! Hear!
M95 served great in two World Wars, I suspect nobody told those Mannlichers they lack something. While I can understand that in theory one can find both disadvantages and advantages for any kind of bolt system, in practice it's all about implementation. And M95 was very good rifle.

The m95 was a strong system, and the m95m converted to 8mm mauser was probably the best of the straight pull rifles.

The swiss bolts are just too long....

 

[Ax.338]

If you are not familiar with the MkIII bolt heat treatment issues you must have never read any of the books on the Ross, nor examined any rifles that aren't new.

The Canadian Army effort to re-heat treat existing bolt heads while waiting for sufficient bolt head replacements from the factory are well documented.

In my collection I have 1 bolt which doesn't exhibit deformation on the left rear lug from impacting the bolt stop. Switching this bolt between several MkIII rifles turns each rifle in turn into a smooth joy to operate. Transferring the other rifle bolts similarly turns each other rifle into a jambing disaster.

Examination of the problem bolts shows very slight deformation.

I have 1 bolt which is badly deformed to the point of material loss, and have seen a dozen exhibiting similar damage.

I highly recommend obtaining "A Question of Confidence" from Service Publications. I have misplaced my copy, however it is based around a reprint of the 1920s investigation into the Ross and attempts to obtain the facts from the myths.

Bolt stop issues existed in both MkII and MkIII Ross rifles.

The split MkII** pattern of bolt stop was apparently an attempt to soften the impact of the bolt againt the stop, however these split bolt stops break...

Examine some Ross MkII bolts for damage to the bolt stop lug, then come back and tell us again about them not having problems. I have seen several which have had the bolt stop lug broken off of the bolts, deformation is quite common.

This is a none issue. The soft bolt heads and the ones that were incorrectly heat treated in the field, were long gone when the Ross was taken out of trench service.

I have never seen a new Ross. I have seen a large number of Rosses that are over 100 years old. And of all of these only a couple had deformed bolt heads. I also have a couple of buggered ones in my parts bins. So this can happen with rifles that have had hard use.

Any rifle whether it be a Ross, Lee Enfield, Mauser, M95 or what have you will develop issues with hard use.

Change the bolt head for a good one, and you will be good for another 100 years.

A Question of Confidence is a good read, and has a lot of good information. As long as you realize the author is trying to justify the shady way the Ross was taken out of service by the Canadian Government and the British Army.

 

[tokguy]

Sam Hughes did no-one any great justice, and he championed the Ross...therefore it had to go.
Rosses are a bit tighter as far as tolerances compared to other weapons of that era. They seemed liked well enough by the sharpshooter's of the CEF, for which the heavier bbl worked well...I surmise anyhow. There seems to be a few pictures of the snipers posing with Rosses with cut back wood IIRC
As an over the top Squaddie...I'd have picked the LE myself. Higher rate of fire, higher capacity and a healthy tolerance for abusive behavior.
Apples and oranges or sharpshooter and Squaddie, different tools for different needs IMO.
I don't mind a good LE, they just never seem to follow me home like the others

 

[green]

Always thought the mag on the MkIII Ross was a major deficiency. Outside of the durability issue the mag is not meant to or made to disassemble for cleaning and requires the removal of the stock to replace.

 

[Rob]

In terms of ugliness I think the military Ross is close to tying with the Swiss K31. It is a similarly well-machined and closely-fitted barreled action bedded in a bulky misshapen stock. However, unlike the Swiss rifle, the Ross is not redeemed by a beautiful bayonet. It may be great steel but the Ross has one seriously ugly bayonet.

That said, I've owned some very nice original Ross sporters.

 

[Lee Enfield]

This is a none issue. The soft bolt heads and the ones that were incorrectly heat treated in the field, were long gone when the Ross was taken out of trench service.

I have never seen a new Ross. I have seen a large number of Rosses that are over 100 years old. And of all of these only a couple had deformed bolt heads. I also have a couple of buggered ones in my parts bins. So this can happen with rifles that have had hard use.

Any rifle whether it be a Ross, Lee Enfield, Mauser, M95 or what have you will develop issues with hard use.

Change the bolt head for a good one, and you will be good for another 100 years.

A Question of Confidence is a good read, and has a lot of good information. As long as you realize the author is trying to justify the shady way the Ross was taken out of service by the Canadian Government and the British Army.

Yes, I agree, just an imaginary problem:

Believe it or not, this isn't the worst MkIII bolt I have seen.

Combat is about rough useage, Germans coming through the mustard gas clouds probably didn't result in babying your rifle....

Looking at the firing pin hole, I don't think that this was a "high round count" rifle, not any noticeable erosion here...

 

[Lee Enfield]

Double tap

 

[Eaglelord17]

Ok and they fixed the problem so your point is?

Might I remind you the Lee Enfield wasn't a perfect rifle when adopted, with many issues that required many successive * upgrades to fix. The No. 1 Mk. 3 was the result of about 18 years of development after it was adopted (the Ross fixed all its issues within 13 years and that is only if you consider the Mk 1 the starting point, which considering the Mk 3 is a substantially different action they fixed the issues with that rifle in 6 years). Rear sights that didn't line up with POI (a big issue when fighting the Boers), lack of charger loading until 1903, same long length everyone else had, etc.

A thing many are missing on this debate is that most military bolt actions went through a ton of development and adjustment after they were adopted. The Germans adopted and dropped the Gewehr 88 in 10 years, the Austrians adopted and dropped the 86 and 88 actions in at most 9 years, the US had the Krag which they dropped in 11 years, the French had the Lebel which they should have dropped immediately, etc.

Many major changes and many upgrades in a short period of time. Everyone had kinks they needed to hammer out especially early on, the few that didn't were those who waited to see what designs would be developed sufficiently first (things like the 1893 Mausers, or 1893 Mannlichers).