Best IPSC 3 Gun rifle?

And - terrible news - mag changes in a storm are faster by a factor of at least two than mag changes on an AR.

Hand to hand, from a pouch at the waist. Just like my pistol.

Also, moving while changing mags is slower than moving while not changing mags.

I can respect Stormbringer's objection, as he flat out states it's simple prejudice. :)

But building stages to try and stack which kind of gun wins? Bad form.
 
Bartledan said:
And - terrible news - mag changes in a storm are faster by a factor of at least two than mag changes on an AR.

Hand to hand, from a pouch at the waist. Just like my pistol.

Also, moving while changing mags is slower than moving while not changing mags.

Dan,

The only part of these statements that I agree with is that not having to reload is faster than reloading.

I can reload my mag-cinched mags or from my vest or belt pouches just as fast so I'm not seeing your point about hand to hand... I think it's a matter of training and I see very few 3 gunners in Canada who are comfortable and unconsciously competent with their long guns (rifle or shotgun). Besides, a regular Safariland mag pouch can also hold an AR mag if adjusted properly thus eliminating the need for a vest or chest mounted pouch.

In my view, the biggest limiting factors in Canadian 3 gun are the 5 round mags for most guns AND the fact that many guys use 20" AR's that I think are unwieldy if the course invovles shooting through ports or around doors etc becuase many guys stuff the guns inot the point or advance too far into the openning and then have difficulty backing out.

Just my thoughts as a SWAT trainer.

Trit
 
tritium said:
Dan,

The only part of these statements that I agree with is that not having to reload is faster than reloading.

I can reload my mag-cinched mags or from my vest or belt pouches just as fast so I'm not seeing your point about hand to hand... I think it's a matter of training and I see very few 3 gunners in Canada who are comfortable and unconsciously competent with their long guns (rifle or shotgun). Besides, a regular Safariland mag pouch can also hold an AR mag if adjusted properly thus eliminating the need for a vest or chest mounted pouch.

Trit, I've got enormous respect for you, but this one, I'm gonna have to make you prove :)

Someday, we'll have a 9mm storm handy (Quigley), and an AR, and I'm gonna time your ass doing an "SR" type mag change drill with an AR from the waist pouch, and the storm from a waist pouch.

I'm not even going to try to weasel out by insisting on achest rig for the AR!

You're an honorable guy, so I know you won't sandbag on the Storm run :)

The gauntlet is tossed!

I bet you a case of beer!

dun dun dun!!!
 
It is possible to use 9mm rifles at 200m, but my strong advice from doing it here is not to approach this task by going to the range with Winchester USA, you need ammo that is more consistent than that, either top-of-the-line 9mm or handloads. I've done a fair bit of testing at 100m using different factory loads and the vast majority show serious vertical stringing at that range. Only Geco had concentric grouping from what I recall. Hmm, and CCI-Lawman I think, I'll have to check.

Most generic 9mm is really plinking ammo designed for the US market rather than target shooting quality ammo.

Obviously you have to be aware of your elevation, but that's the trade-off for not using something that is flat-shooting.

The problem we have here is that most ranges are only approved for pistol ammo (yes I'm aware of the irony), so most people use lever-actions in .357 or .44, but I've got a bolt-action 9mm, as semi-auto centrefire rifles are prohibited.

Plates should go down more successfully with 9mm as it has more mass than .223, even though they are both minor power factor.

The minor power factor was designed around .223 with a 55gr bullet out of a 16" barrel, btw, according to Tim Andersen, who wrote the rules.

Personally I like 9mm because it's more user-friendly, less muzzle blast/not as loud. Theoretically you will have more recoil (although it never feels like it) and muzzle flip than a .223, that might be an issue with semi-autos, but we can't have them here and it's not really an issue with a manually operated rifle.
 
Now gentlemen, we have a wonderful example of the best in Canadian Shooting. A put up or shut up contest, with Beer as the stakes.

So who exactly loses??
 
Options?

How about the Ruger Deer Rifle in 44 mag? :rolleyes: It has enough velocity and accuracy at a 100 yards. It's a semi-auto but with an unfotunate 4 round mag. You can shoot it in indoor clubs that only allow pistol caliber rifles AND you can take it deer hunting. It might be a contender if some ambitious manufacturer makes a 5 or 10 round mag for it.

R U Ready? Never.
 
well I was getting close two 3 sec reloads with the AR(drawing mags from drop leg


I think setting up stages to make the reload on the move will level the playing field,much better the no pistol round carbines...


Jamie Barkwell


Jamie Barkwell
 
Dan,Earl....

I have a threegun match on the 17th.......lets see your stuff



Jamie Barkwell
 
Quigley said:
No such thing as cheating if it's allowed by the published rules...


Hence the need to CLEAN UP THE RULES!!

The Storm "issue" is a Canadian Problem due to the stupid Canadian Laws we have on mag cap.

If we had 30 rd AR mags.........hell even 10 round AR mags this would not pose a problem.

However...........we have a "loop hole" in our laws that makes these Storms overly efficient in the game.
 
Canuck223 said:
Now gentlemen, we have a wonderful example of the best in Canadian Shooting. A put up or shut up contest, with Beer as the stakes.

So who exactly loses??

WAIT!

I was saying that Trit do both of them, timed. I'm prepared to grant, here in writing and in public, that he can change mags in an AR before I can change mags in a Storm.

I want him to compete against himself! I know he won't dog, as he's a stand up guy.

I bet Trit could change a belt before I could swap a mag.
 
Bartledan said:
WAIT!

I was saying that Trit do both of them, timed. I'm prepared to grant, here in writing and in public, that he can change mags in an AR before I can change mags in a Storm.

I want him to compete against himself! I know he won't dog, as he's a stand up guy.

I bet Trit could change a belt before I could swap a mag.



oh...And I thought this was going to be fun.....



Jamie Barkwell
 
ton45 said:
How about the Ruger Deer Rifle in 44 mag? :rolleyes: It has enough velocity and accuracy at a 100 yards. It's a semi-auto but with an unfotunate 4 round mag. You can shoot it in indoor clubs that only allow pistol caliber rifles AND you can take it deer hunting. It might be a contender if some ambitious manufacturer makes a 5 or 10 round mag for it.

R U Ready? Never.


Heck, any lever gun in .357 or 44 mag or 45 long colt would be good to 150 yards and carry a dozen shots. Reloading would be slower, but how often do you need more than a dozen shots in a stage?
 
Cocked&Locked said:
Heck, any lever gun in .357 or 44 mag or 45 long colt would be good to 150 yards and carry a dozen shots. Reloading would be slower, but how often do you need more than a dozen shots in a stage?

Well, judging from my huge 3 gun experience of twice...

Basically every stage.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a "5 rounds per mag" limit on everything written in as a "rule exemption" for IPSC Canada, so long as we have the inane 5 round centerfire semiauto rifle law.

Stupid law.

It does artificially favor pistol caliber carbines.
 
Bartledan said:
It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a "5 rounds per mag" limit on everything written in as a "rule exemption" for IPSC Canada, so long as we have the inane 5 round centerfire semiauto rifle law.

Stupid law.

It does artificially favor pistol caliber carbines.
Agreed. Stupid Law.

Exemption; not gonna happen. We're fighting a battle to keep the exemptions we have now.

Stage design can eliminate any artificial favoring; true IPSC rifle requires that no more than 4 scoring rounds are available per position and toss in some real distances. You'll see stages that could favor the pistol carbines and stages that favor the rifles.
 
I vote for a pistol calibre carbine, 9mm, 357sig or 38super.
200 yards is no problem using mildot scope, PF higher than .223 things, but most important - I shoot it every time I shoot pistol.
 
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