best short action round

mpwolf said:
I've thought about what I would would build if I was going to make the switch to Open, and I think it would be a 6 BR for the shorts, and a 284 for the longs.
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Mick McPhee keeps telling me "Be weary of the man who has only one gun.....cuz he probably f'n knows how to use it". Yes...that is a direct quote... :D

I agree that BC plays a crucial role when the wind picks up and the distance increases, hence why I decided to build a 6.5-08 to try and take advantage of the higher BC bullets without kicking the sh1t out of myself on the line with say a 7mm. But if my 6.5 shoots it's most accurate at the same ballistic performance that my smaller, faster 6mm is shooting....I may have to look at something else in the future.

mysticplayer said:
Cyan1de, I bet if you ran an improved 260 and pushed to 2950fps, the difference will be even greater.
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Jerry...I can easily get my 6.5 up to 2950 and beyond.....but the accuracy is not there. I thought I had a killer load the other day (46.5gr 4831SC, Berger 140's jammed .018, Federal 215M at 2948 printed 3 shots into 1" at 500m) but when I took it out again it printed a 5 shot 8" group at 500m. The second test was in windy conditions with absolutely no flags flying anywhere on the range...so maybe it requires more testing.

If I could get the accuracy out of it in the 2950 range.....I would have no troubles putting it into a match.....but thus far it has been quite discouraging trying to find something that works in it. I have used 4 or 5 powders, put 400 rounds down the pipe and nothing is screaming "THAT'S THE LOAD" so far. :(

Am I expecting too much out of this cartridge perhaps? Has my string of bugholing 6BR's jaded my judgment and set my expectations far above where they should be? I want to know that if I see conditions....and I hold off for them....that my bullet will go where I want it to, not within 4" either side of where I want it to go. If on a calm, no mirage day, I hold center bull and shoot 5's and 4's with the occasional V thrown in.....this is not a rifle I can trust driving in a match. On a calm, no mirage day, I know my 6BR will drive the V-Bull out of the target (unless I do something stoopid of course) this is a rifle I can trust and KNOW that it will put the bullet where I want it to go......most of the time....LOL
 
Mick is right- and that's one of the reasons I like F/Tr. I shoot one rifle- and have damn near shot out a .308 barrel since last July. The feeling I was getting at the FCWC's was that the competative open shooters has 6.5's and 7mm that would bughole. Period. A new barrel that didn't went away fast and was replaced by one that would. I don't think that the international stage is a place for a rifle cartridge that should, theoretically, compete. Don't forget the WC's shoot the palma course of 800, 900 and 1000yrd. There's no short range component. I don't hink there's any point in reinventing the wheel here-See what is working in the context of which one is planning on competing, and carry one
 
Obtunded said:
I would love to speak with someone that has actually gotten 90 grain Bergers to work well enough to compete in F-Class out of an unimproved 223 case. One really needs a 6.5" twist (not a standard twist) to make them work and there is lttle point in having that sort of BC if you can't get them up to the velocity that comparable (BC-wise) 6mm bullets are running. That bullet is comparable to the 6mm Berger 105, but a 223 doesn't get them going anwhere near fast enough without a bantha stick.

I have spoken with MANY shooters (and barrel buyers) that came to understand that the 90 Bergers are the stuff of 22BR's or 22-250's
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There is a guy in the US that is getting the 90s to work in a 7.7 twist low elevation and es/sd numbers, while getting over 3000 out of a 32 inch barrel. Lots of folks are watching his work closely as the thought of being able to shot inside a 308 and come close to a 6mm dasher in performance is exciting when you factor in that you will be using half the powder required and a noticable reduction in recoil over the 308.
 
CyaN1de said:
Jerry...I can easily get my 6.5 up to 2950 and beyond.....but the accuracy is not there. I thought I had a killer load the other day (46.5gr 4831SC, Berger 140's jammed .018, Federal 215M at 2948 printed 3 shots into 1" at 500m) but when I took it out again it printed a 5 shot 8" group at 500m. The second test was in windy conditions with absolutely no flags flying anywhere on the range...so maybe it requires more testing.

If I could get the accuracy out of it in the 2950 range.....I would have no troubles putting it into a match.....but thus far it has been quite discouraging trying to find something that works in it. I have used 4 or 5 powders, put 400 rounds down the pipe and nothing is screaming "THAT'S THE LOAD" so far. :(

Am I expecting too much out of this cartridge perhaps?
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I think you may be pushing that case a bit hard if reaching for 2950fps but if it repeats on a calm day, you got yourself a laser beam. 500m is a nasty place to be at your range on a windy day. Retest and see...

I went with the improved case so that I would gain a bit more case capacity and run comfortably into the 2900fps using a 30" barrel. Now have built and shot 5 barrels and the performance is repeatable. In fact, one barrel is just under 3000fps with cases that have tight pockets after 10 firings.

I am using 48 to 49gr of H4831SC (my lots of powders and primers and not an indicator of load data - don't you just love lawyers) behind a 139gr lapua scenar/Win brass. 10 thou off the lands. This combo seems to work in all of my barrels from various makers.

Maybe a change in bullet is in order. I wouldn't bother with anything other then H4831SC, CCI BR2 primers. Has worked so reliably for me.

If you can't get the consistency at 2950fps, maybe there is a slower node around 2850fps. The ballistic difference is not huge between this and the fast 6BR and 105gr VLD but slight differences is what is driving the present 7mm craze.

Will become more apparent the further you go and the windier it gets.

As for accuracy, my barrels have been dead reliable and consistent shooting in the 2's. Like you and your 6BR, I feel confident that were the bullet lands is a true indicator of conditions. The rifle will drill out the V ring at 300m even if I can't.

Jerry
 
Trevor60, that is spooky fast with a 223. Any links to his info/posts? would love to read more about his set up.

The 90gr Berger VLD may be a game changer IF it is able to be pushed fast AND stays accurate at LR. Min accurate velocity must be 2800fps with 2900fps being better and approaching 3000fps being best.

Maybe the twists have been too fast in the past causing issues inflight. I was reading the article in Marksman Winter/Spring 2008 by Clint Dahlstrom. He was also able to get velocities over 2800fps but was using a 6 1/2 twist. He suggest some weird stuff happening after 900yds.

When this bullet gets figured out, it will be like the 'revolution' in Service rifle when the AR's were figured out and will now outshoot any M1A or Garand. Some of these tweaked AR's will give a bolt rifle a run.

I feel this will be a huge boost to F class and open a great place for shooters adverse to recoil/noise and costs to play on an equal footing.

Will be watching closely too...

Jerry
 
I'm pretty sure that the guy he refers to would be Jerry Tierney of Sacramento, who reports his work on http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/ (as "JERRY_HM") from time to time.

No way that it's 3000fps with a .223, that must be with a larger case.

I had thought that the Berger 90 VLD had turned out to be a bit of a dud (as in no-one's ever gotten them to shoot well at 1000yards, and Berger would likely re-design them). Although I see a comment from Jerry "***** This load is producing sub X-ring elevation at 1000 yards (prone, irons)." w.r.t. a Berger 90 VLD fired from a .223 at 2806fps (SD 2 ES 7)
 
It was a pleasure to shoot at the Batouche range last weekend at the Atlantics. The wind killed me. I shot three 4's and a 3 :eek: I have never shot a 3, ever, and this rifle has never shot a 4. During the course, I noted mirage flowing left at the backstop and flowing right at the butts. All the flags were pointing in alternating directions and all the trees/leaves were steady. At the start of the final range of the comp, I was actually in the lead by a point. Not being able to find a true wind indicator resulted in a poor score and second place. As skill would show, Leo found a decent wind indicator, stopped loosing points and took the match. No bullet could compensate for what the wind was doing, it was up the shooter.

That being said, if you want to go open, go 6mmBR. For F-Res I'd try the 223 with 90's but cannot recommend it since I haven't proven it. If I couldn't use the 90's, I'd go 308.
 
I guess i was wishing 3000 closes he gets is 2912 and you are correct it is Jerry.
at 1000 the 223 is shooting 71.47 vs the 155 at 91.6 that is close to 20 inches less drift.

Chronograph data on June 1, 2009

S80 ----------------------------- 3095 ---- .434 --- 98.56”
B82 ----------------------------- 3057 ---- .432 --- 93.28”
B90BT -------------------------- 2833 ---- .525 --- 79.73”
B90BT -------------------------- 2856 ---- .525 --- 78.77”
B90BT -------------------------- 2895 ---- .525 --- 77.17”
B90VLD ------------------------ 2860 ---- .552 --- 73.46”
B90VLD ------------------------ 2883 ---- .552 --- 72.57” **** 1000 Yard tested on 6-2-2009
B90VLD ------------------------ 2912 ---- .552 --- 71.47”
 
Also, in one other post on this topic, I have read that you really need to be able to measure your powder accurately as in less then .1 grn, ideally to .05 as they tested that the difference between .1grn + or - was approx. 14fps, which at 1000 yards equated to 1/2"MOA of deviation. If someone can get something working out to 1000 yards, what scales would be available that can deliver this sort of consistency/accuracy?

BTW they were using N550 with Berger 90VLD's for later reference.
 
In my testing with the 223, charge weight is critical. I use a Jennings MACK 20 precision digi scale which is supposed to have a tolerance of 0.04gr

Based on the scale readout, I am keeping my Varget loads to within two kernels of powder. Really helps to dial in the vertical stringing.

I think this may be one of the reasons some shooters are having vertical issues at LR.

Hopefully, it isn't an aerodynamic problem??????

Jerry
 
Although my knowledge of this topic is still very narrow, I cannot see how it would be an aerodynamic problem. Just think worst case senario. Most people that shoot this style of competition usually weigh their charges at first, and then every 5-10 cases afterwards. Lets say you are using a scale that claims accuracy to the 1/10grn. So, in reality, every now and then, due to operator error loads a couple cases that are .075 - .1grn hot and a couple low. By the information gathered before, combined you would see a deviation of 1 MOA between the high and low, now factor in the rifles accuracy capabilty at that range. Say it can shoot 1/2MOA at 600 yards and it was figured that it would open up to 1 MOA at 1000. So, if you figure that the rounds that are closest to each other in terms of powder charge shoot 1MOA at 1000, now factor in the others for a high and low and you are now at 2 MOA at 1000 for the whole group shot correct? Is that even logical thinking? Could it be we will be at the limit of our reloading equipment before the limit of the caliber? The most exciting thing about this whole scenario is how we may be able to shoot with the big boys, but not feeling the pain in the shoulder, or the wallet.

For now, I WILL keep drinking this ice cold Bud and keep racking my brain to try and have a Eureka! moment and solve everything......On the other hand, I am much better at drinking....
 
I just looked up those Jennings Mack 20 scales and they claim accuracy of .002 gram which is equal to .03grn. At only $100Cdn, one of these would be a wise investment IMO to persons looking to try and get the most out of the topic at hand.
 
Bud, here is my simple answer - DON'T TEST WITH A CHRONIE!!!

Then you will not get bogged down by numbers that were quite meaningless. Now if you have an Oehler or some other double screen Chronie and can get data with a FPS accuracy of 5FPS or less, you can crunch numbers.

I just use a chronie to let me know when I am approaching 'hero' territory. The error in the device is larger then the data we are trying to analyze.

I test my groups on paper and let the holes tell the tale. That is all that really matters.

When I was testing with a Chronie, I had loads where the data sucked but the groups were teeny tiny with little to no vertical dispersion. Reading the instruction manual and looking at the instrument error, I understood why.

By using very small increments of powder, I have been able to dial out vertical dispersion (tested at 200yds and further). When loading for a 223, 0.1gr is a tangible powder increment. If you load with an error of up to 0.2gr, odds are not good for LR precision.

The Jennings is the least expensive scale I could find with a speced tolerance in the range of interest. After 3yrs, it is still working great.

Jerry
 
Rob, I think last Monday at Batouche was exactly the sort of day for a 6.5-.284 (or a 7mm/180) F/Open gun to earn its pay and deliver something useful in return for all of its recoil and barrel life costs. On that sort of difficult shooting day, where even the very best shooters are struggling and only managing to "almost keep up" with the wind, that's when the best shooters' "just out" shot can be turned into a "just in" shot by just a little extra raw ballistic performance.

(I'm not saying ballistic horsepower alone can win a match - it can't. But I'd rather be the best shooter on the range with the highest performance rifle, than the best shooter on the range with a mid-performance rifle)


PEI ROB said:
No bullet could compensate for what the wind was doing, it was up the shooter.
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