Big ticket NR black rifle. Which one? Poll added
- Thread starter tdod101
- Start date
So far I've owned one Tavor and shot four others, owned two HK SL8-4's and shot a couple others, owned two ACR's and shot numerous others, owned a SA classic green and shot one or two others (these are better quality rifles than the Famae rifles), owned one gen 2 RFB and shot one other, never owned an XCR but I've shot numerous L models in 223 and one in 6.8 as well as a couple of M models in 308, I've never owned one but I've shot one Norinco T97, owned a mini-14 and shot a couple others, I've also never owned one but I've shot three modern hunters. Probably forgetting a couple but it doesn't matter.
Out of all of them my favorite so far is the ACR, it just does everything I want it to do at or away from the range.
I feel the Swiss Arms and HK SL8 are close seconds each for different reasons. The SA is a beautifully built rifle and I never had a failure of any kind with mine but I was a little let down in the accuracy department. The HK is also very well made but is not as comfy as the ACR or SA without the Hera Arms lower that my second one had. The HK is easily the most accurate rifle out of the box with no aftermarket parts needed.
The RFB I had was an excellent rifle but I found I just wasn't using it other than to let others try it. The rifle was accurate enough for hunting and was great for a handloader since all your brass just piles up right in front of your feet.
For some reason I've never been able to like the Tavor very much. I had shot four of them and they just never did it for me so I decided I should buy one for myself to see what all the hype was about. Turns out it was just hype and nothing else. Terrible trigger unless you want to spend another $400 on an already expensive rifle. Accuracy was about the same as an XCR-L which is medeocre at best. Ergo's would be fine with some training on the platform but not great for switching back and forth with non bullpup rifles. I feel like the Tavor would be a keeper if it was your only black rifle but it just isn't as intuitive as an AR is unless you only train with the Tavor so your body forgets how to run a standard configuration rifle.
I like the Modern Hunter and I'm sure I'll like the Modern Varminter when I get a chance to play with one. I do however feel the rifle needed more R&D before being released and I definitely don't feel it's worth the high cost. Of the three I've shot none would do 1 moa or better with any ammo we tried. I'm sure they were capable of better accuracy with better ammo but I've tried around ten different types of factory ammo. Two of the rifles were also having feeding issues even when using 150gr FMJ which every 308 semi should have no problem with. All three rifles also had issues with the non reciprocating charge handle bouncing around while firing and usually sitting mid stroke when the rifle locked back after last round. I'm being pretty picky here but when a company charges $4000-$5000 for a reworked to be NR AR-10 they should expect it to be scrutinized and to me it doesn't measure up to it's price tag. To me the MH is not as good of a rifle as my billit AR-10 build was. My AR-10 had all top end parts including matched billet upper/lower and match grade 16 inch barrel and it was more reliable, just as accurate, and would also accept any SR-25/DPMS pattern magazine which the MH would not and it cost $3000 to build. So I'll give another $400 for the carbon fiber wrapped barrel and even with a $1000 non restricted tax the MH is still overpriced by $500. Their barrel upgrade is the part of their pricing that erks me the most. Let's do an imaginary build and say we're deciding on the barrel. Standard match grade stainless will cost you $4000 with your other selected options, now upgrade to the carbon wrapped barrel and it's a $900 option. That barrel costs $900? Sure let's go with that but what about the value of the stainless barrel they no longer have to supply? That should actually be a $400-$500 upgrade according to my math.
Mini-14 and Type-97? Don't waste your money unless you can find one for $500
I've also owned two Norinco M305-s and still have one. If you get a good one or one that has been gone through by someone who know what they are doing they are a great value for the money. They're reliable and are accurate enough to hunt with or ring gongs at a few hundred yards.
Another rifle not on your list that is an awesome NR black rifle is the AR180B-2. I love mine and will keep it till they come and take it. It's discontinued now so used is your only option but if you can find one for under $1500 I'd buy it. I'll take mine over an XCR or Famae any day.
When the non restricted DTA MDR is released here I'll be buying one and it may become my new favorite but until then my ACR is top choice.
Depending what barrel you decide to go with you can have a non restricted ACR for around $2500 if you buy a used restricted rifle for around $2000 and then have it converted. I'm not sure what these guys on the EE are smoking when they ask $3200-$3500 for their rifle. I figure that if the first thing you're going to do is replace the barrel then it really doesn't matter if the chassis has a few hundred rounds through it so buying a used rifle to convert makes a lot more sense to me.
Good luck
Out of all of them my favorite so far is the ACR, it just does everything I want it to do at or away from the range.
I feel the Swiss Arms and HK SL8 are close seconds each for different reasons. The SA is a beautifully built rifle and I never had a failure of any kind with mine but I was a little let down in the accuracy department. The HK is also very well made but is not as comfy as the ACR or SA without the Hera Arms lower that my second one had. The HK is easily the most accurate rifle out of the box with no aftermarket parts needed.
The RFB I had was an excellent rifle but I found I just wasn't using it other than to let others try it. The rifle was accurate enough for hunting and was great for a handloader since all your brass just piles up right in front of your feet.
For some reason I've never been able to like the Tavor very much. I had shot four of them and they just never did it for me so I decided I should buy one for myself to see what all the hype was about. Turns out it was just hype and nothing else. Terrible trigger unless you want to spend another $400 on an already expensive rifle. Accuracy was about the same as an XCR-L which is medeocre at best. Ergo's would be fine with some training on the platform but not great for switching back and forth with non bullpup rifles. I feel like the Tavor would be a keeper if it was your only black rifle but it just isn't as intuitive as an AR is unless you only train with the Tavor so your body forgets how to run a standard configuration rifle.
I like the Modern Hunter and I'm sure I'll like the Modern Varminter when I get a chance to play with one. I do however feel the rifle needed more R&D before being released and I definitely don't feel it's worth the high cost. Of the three I've shot none would do 1 moa or better with any ammo we tried. I'm sure they were capable of better accuracy with better ammo but I've tried around ten different types of factory ammo. Two of the rifles were also having feeding issues even when using 150gr FMJ which every 308 semi should have no problem with. All three rifles also had issues with the non reciprocating charge handle bouncing around while firing and usually sitting mid stroke when the rifle locked back after last round. I'm being pretty picky here but when a company charges $4000-$5000 for a reworked to be NR AR-10 they should expect it to be scrutinized and to me it doesn't measure up to it's price tag. To me the MH is not as good of a rifle as my billit AR-10 build was. My AR-10 had all top end parts including matched billet upper/lower and match grade 16 inch barrel and it was more reliable, just as accurate, and would also accept any SR-25/DPMS pattern magazine which the MH would not and it cost $3000 to build. So I'll give another $400 for the carbon fiber wrapped barrel and even with a $1000 non restricted tax the MH is still overpriced by $500. Their barrel upgrade is the part of their pricing that erks me the most. Let's do an imaginary build and say we're deciding on the barrel. Standard match grade stainless will cost you $4000 with your other selected options, now upgrade to the carbon wrapped barrel and it's a $900 option. That barrel costs $900? Sure let's go with that but what about the value of the stainless barrel they no longer have to supply? That should actually be a $400-$500 upgrade according to my math.
Mini-14 and Type-97? Don't waste your money unless you can find one for $500
I've also owned two Norinco M305-s and still have one. If you get a good one or one that has been gone through by someone who know what they are doing they are a great value for the money. They're reliable and are accurate enough to hunt with or ring gongs at a few hundred yards.
Another rifle not on your list that is an awesome NR black rifle is the AR180B-2. I love mine and will keep it till they come and take it. It's discontinued now so used is your only option but if you can find one for under $1500 I'd buy it. I'll take mine over an XCR or Famae any day.
When the non restricted DTA MDR is released here I'll be buying one and it may become my new favorite but until then my ACR is top choice.
Depending what barrel you decide to go with you can have a non restricted ACR for around $2500 if you buy a used restricted rifle for around $2000 and then have it converted. I'm not sure what these guys on the EE are smoking when they ask $3200-$3500 for their rifle. I figure that if the first thing you're going to do is replace the barrel then it really doesn't matter if the chassis has a few hundred rounds through it so buying a used rifle to convert makes a lot more sense to me.
Good luck
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I just paid $1450 for a proof CFW barrel and that was uncut. I d like to know where to get a $900 one
Do you think ATRS pays retail prices like the rest of us do?
Do you think they also might get a better deal for ordering say 50 of them at once?
I'm sure they pay less for the barrels but they have to put some mark up on them. You said questioned that a CFW barrel costs $900 . Proof has them listed $900 US .So if you got 20 for $600 US , that's $900 or so CAD to their door. Is a business going to then sell it to the public for what it cost them? Let's say a MV without a barrel cost $2700. Add a SS barrel $500? = $3200. Add a Proof CFW $1450=$4150. Make sense? I just thought your prices are a bit off. You buy a ACR for $3000 and get a CFW barrel put on it will be in the same ball park. Hey I agree , it's appears to be overpriced, because it's untested yet. But if reliable and accurate , at $3200 , it's a viable option. Upgrades are not included on any of the rifles. I've been waiting for a while now to buy another NR black rifle and almost bought a new ACR , in November ,$2400+. But decided to take a chance with the MV. I've had a few, XCR-L keymod, Jard-48,and 2 SU 16(lol). And they're all gone.
I wanted a black rifle but couldn't choose between the Tavor and ACR. I went for the Tavor first and after having the it for a few years, setting it up just how I wanted, I still couldn't get used to the ergonomics. Great gun, but it just wasn't ideal for me.
The mag release and bolt release could be better placed. Holding the bolt back could be easier. I also really didn't like the plastic pvc tube like grip. Also non-adjustable lop.
Sold my Tavor to buy an ACR. This gun could of been a greater success if it had more factory support. Luckily in Canada you can still get any barrel conversion you want if you have the money. For the Adaptive Combat Rifle, it really is lacking a lot of the adaptive part. You're stuck with a magpul grip that you can't remove (unless we could get the Remington version). There is an adapter to switch to an AR style stock but not available in Canada. Forend options are limited again because of the full upper rail and piston system.
The ACR does have a great bolt release location though, and overall it is a good gun. I just found a few things I didn't like, mostly the grip, stock and forend options. Even with its flaws I was looking for a NR ACR but lucky for me I found out about ATRS before I bought the ACR.
It really sucks our non-restricted options are so limited in Canada. I think most of us would be happy with a nice ar-15 and not worry about all these other inferior black rifles.
Fortunately for us a great Canadian company took notice of how limited our non-restricted black rifle options were and produced for us the closest thing to an AR-15 we can have. In some ways even improving on the design. All in the non-restricted legal status we so greatly demand.
My vote would go to the modern varmint.
Best quality, ergonomics, customization, accuracy and customer support. I will have to wait to give my opinions of the MV until they deliver mine but so far my MH has been everything I expected. I only have a few complaints about my MH so far. I like how its easy to insert the mag but its way too sharp on the edges of the mag well, I want to make mine less pointy but don't exactly wanna break out the file. The charging handle can limit some of your stock options. The barrel options are limited too, only match ss or carbon fiber. I'd love an option for a CHF chrome lined barrel. I'd also like if the trigger spring was a little harder so it wouldn't have light primer strikes with some surplus ammo. It won't feed lead tipped, round nose or other soft point bullets. One last thing is the price, its high. But it is a fair price for a world class quality product with great people behind it so you definitely get what you pay for.
The mag release and bolt release could be better placed. Holding the bolt back could be easier. I also really didn't like the plastic pvc tube like grip. Also non-adjustable lop.
Sold my Tavor to buy an ACR. This gun could of been a greater success if it had more factory support. Luckily in Canada you can still get any barrel conversion you want if you have the money. For the Adaptive Combat Rifle, it really is lacking a lot of the adaptive part. You're stuck with a magpul grip that you can't remove (unless we could get the Remington version). There is an adapter to switch to an AR style stock but not available in Canada. Forend options are limited again because of the full upper rail and piston system.
The ACR does have a great bolt release location though, and overall it is a good gun. I just found a few things I didn't like, mostly the grip, stock and forend options. Even with its flaws I was looking for a NR ACR but lucky for me I found out about ATRS before I bought the ACR.
It really sucks our non-restricted options are so limited in Canada. I think most of us would be happy with a nice ar-15 and not worry about all these other inferior black rifles.
Fortunately for us a great Canadian company took notice of how limited our non-restricted black rifle options were and produced for us the closest thing to an AR-15 we can have. In some ways even improving on the design. All in the non-restricted legal status we so greatly demand.
My vote would go to the modern varmint.
Best quality, ergonomics, customization, accuracy and customer support. I will have to wait to give my opinions of the MV until they deliver mine but so far my MH has been everything I expected. I only have a few complaints about my MH so far. I like how its easy to insert the mag but its way too sharp on the edges of the mag well, I want to make mine less pointy but don't exactly wanna break out the file. The charging handle can limit some of your stock options. The barrel options are limited too, only match ss or carbon fiber. I'd love an option for a CHF chrome lined barrel. I'd also like if the trigger spring was a little harder so it wouldn't have light primer strikes with some surplus ammo. It won't feed lead tipped, round nose or other soft point bullets. One last thing is the price, its high. But it is a fair price for a world class quality product with great people behind it so you definitely get what you pay for.
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Turned out the mods discovered the OP was liberal cabinet minister Ralph Goodale. He was tricking us to see what our favorite rifle is. The Tavor will be the first to go prohib thanks to this poll.
My point is that there doesn't seem to be any credit given for them not having to supply the stainless barrel when you upgrade. You simply add on the price of the upgrade barrel and they put the stainless on someone else's rifle.
Also as you can see from my experience with three of them they aren't all that reliable and they are no more accurate than an AR-10 yet they cost around $2000 more than a similarly built high end AR-10. Other than the cool way the rear takedown pin was eliminated the Modern Hunter is in most other respects a high end AR-10, they didn't invent a better wheel, they just tweaked an existing design to work around Canadian laws, their tweaks also seem to have reduced the reliability of the proven design it was modeled after. It's a nice rifle but it needed a little more time testing with ammo other than FGMM and handloads. There is no way the rifles I shot should have had problems with 150gr FMJ. I think this is probably because of the tight match chamber they cut but even that shouldn't have caused the number of stoppages I've seen.
It's a nice rifle and if you're happy with yours then I'm happy for you but based on my experience with three of them and shooting them side by side with an AR-10 I don't feel they are worth $4000-$5000 depending on the options you pick.
Just one guy's opinion, you're free to like them as much as you like.
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I don't have a MH but do have a MV ordered. I looked at all the options on the op list and decided none of them were for me. If no MV then I would've tried the ACR.At the end of the day it's personal preference and how much money your willing to spend. I had a choice between the ACR and the MV. Both being close to same value , money didn't factor into the choice. I chose the MV because it's the closest thing to an AR15 , that I could find. That's it. I the chose a CFW barrel for $900 upgrade. I got a credit for the SS barrel for $550. Because the cheapest place I could find a Proof CFW barrel was from Blackleaf industries , at a cost of $1450.
