Bighorn Origin
- Thread starter MartyK2500
- Start date
That's the way to go these days and what I do with all calibers I reload for other than .223 (that I just full length resize cause it's just practice ammo so who cares).
Doing the exact same way except I'm using a set of Hornady dies with the expander removed the Sinclair expander die! If it works out I will probaly do this on my 308, however, I have RCBS full-length comp dies which feature the high mounted expander and is supposed to be the perfect in between.
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In 308 I still have the body die + Lee collet die,
If my experience with the FLS + Sinclair expand die turns out to be good, I may switch my 308 setup to this too.
Because,
1. Right off the bat with my 6.5, I never seated bullets in 0F brass with such facility and consistency, that expander die really makes things consistent.
In 308 I would pass my 0F brass in the neck size collet die, but it wouldn't achieve same seating results/consistency I just got with my 6.5s,
2. Ease of use.
Collet die does require a bit of torque, i'm always scared of breaking stuff when torqueing that hard on a press 200x times in a row in a session,
Nothing broke so far 3000 reloads later, but am not a fan of it none the less.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Keep us updated on how the expander sized brass keeps up with runout and such. not a process I would personally choose but if it works for you...
wrt to the force on the Lee collet neck die, it is less then FL sizing a case so....If you feel that you are applying alot of force on the press lever, you are... it doesn't need anywhere near that much. You just need to give it a firm lean and you should feel the die 'give' as it squishes the neck. If there is no give, odds are the fired case is almost on the diameter needed after sizing so there is almost nothing for you to size.... like maybe a couple of thou which doesn't need a bunch of energy to move.
The diameter of the mandrel typically given in a collet neck die is smaller then on an expander mandrel. If you chose to get an identical sized mandrel and tapered the bottom near the decapping pin, you would end up doing to same thing.
Cause.. that is what I have done on occasion.
Don't get me wrong, I have and offer expander mandrel set up made by K&M. They work very well and have their place... but part of the basic neck prep is not something I would lean on.
There are just easier ways...
Jerry
When comes time to FLS or body die (haven't done it with my forster 6.5x47 L yet), I do a process that may be detrimental, but feels much smoother.
First I polish die interior with a chamber mop fastened on a power drill, and autosol polish compound.
Give it a 3-4 minute spin until interior is mirror finish, and give it a good clean.
My casings I use Dillon lanolin lube, that I let the alcohol evaporate before sizing.
My friends have witnessed me full length resize with a 2 thou bump, using only my index finger on the press lever, it's that easy.
Polishing the die makes a big difference here, it also removed tooling marks Reddings die left behind on brass previously.
I understand I changed die dia a tiny bit, but hey they still chamber none the different as it does resize body dia,
When comes time to my Lee Collet die (which you are the one who put me on to this), I produce exact zero thou runout ammo, it's that good.
On 0F Lapua brass, with neck interior very lightly lubed when doing the neck size pass, I still get slightly erratic bullet seating.
With my Sinclair mandrel on 6.5x47, it's the first time 0F brass felt so consistent to seat bullets.
Once I fire and start resizing, I may not like the FLS + mandrel experience as much as the body die + collet die combination.
At least in my recently learned experience, a mandrel expander die is definitely a GO TO die when dealing with 0F brass, makes the process more consistent.
Or at least I think, got my rounds loaded up in 0.20gn increment between 36 and 37.5gn of varget, if I don't get any accurate loads maybe my process will have to be revisited!
For the collet die, I believe you are right and i'll have to experiment using less force, I do feel a ''click'' when the neck sizes, and I try to give it a few lbs past that.
Never popped a cap off yet, lot's of users report this with excessive torque.
First I polish die interior with a chamber mop fastened on a power drill, and autosol polish compound.
Give it a 3-4 minute spin until interior is mirror finish, and give it a good clean.
My casings I use Dillon lanolin lube, that I let the alcohol evaporate before sizing.
My friends have witnessed me full length resize with a 2 thou bump, using only my index finger on the press lever, it's that easy.
Polishing the die makes a big difference here, it also removed tooling marks Reddings die left behind on brass previously.
I understand I changed die dia a tiny bit, but hey they still chamber none the different as it does resize body dia,
When comes time to my Lee Collet die (which you are the one who put me on to this), I produce exact zero thou runout ammo, it's that good.
On 0F Lapua brass, with neck interior very lightly lubed when doing the neck size pass, I still get slightly erratic bullet seating.
With my Sinclair mandrel on 6.5x47, it's the first time 0F brass felt so consistent to seat bullets.
Once I fire and start resizing, I may not like the FLS + mandrel experience as much as the body die + collet die combination.
At least in my recently learned experience, a mandrel expander die is definitely a GO TO die when dealing with 0F brass, makes the process more consistent.
Or at least I think, got my rounds loaded up in 0.20gn increment between 36 and 37.5gn of varget, if I don't get any accurate loads maybe my process will have to be revisited!
For the collet die, I believe you are right and i'll have to experiment using less force, I do feel a ''click'' when the neck sizes, and I try to give it a few lbs past that.
Never popped a cap off yet, lot's of users report this with excessive torque.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The issue with 0F brass will only be relevant for exactly 1 firing. I also use an expander mandrel for that out of the box fix.... but after coming out of my chamber, I move back to the body die/collet die process.
for all the reasons we don't want to have an expander ball in a sizing die, why use an expander stub on an unsupported case?
If you dont find an accurate load with Varget, move to H4350 and you will.
The lack of energy on your press while sizing is directly tied to reamer/chamber dimension that is at min spec relative to your die.
If you had a reamer that was a hint larger then your die, I don't care how much you polish, you are going to need energy to reform that case. But keeping the dirt and roughness out of any sizing die is good practise.
Jerry
for all the reasons we don't want to have an expander ball in a sizing die, why use an expander stub on an unsupported case?
If you dont find an accurate load with Varget, move to H4350 and you will.
The lack of energy on your press while sizing is directly tied to reamer/chamber dimension that is at min spec relative to your die.
If you had a reamer that was a hint larger then your die, I don't care how much you polish, you are going to need energy to reform that case. But keeping the dirt and roughness out of any sizing die is good practise.
Jerry
Since i now already have the redding body die, forster FLS and sinclair mandrel,
I’ll send brass and bullets to Lee for a collet die.
Doesn’t mean I’ll use it regularly, but having freedom of choice is never a bad thing.
That would make sense that the guys at IBI are running reamers on the tight side thus having less to resize.
As i know many people now that can’t touch their lands,
Now in both 308 and 6.5x47 Lapua, i can touch lands out of a plastic mag in my iBI barrels, that is not a feature i dislike!
I also scrub my fired casing with krazy kloth lately,
I have absolutely no impurities going in my dies.
Got my fingers crossed that Varget will play well in this caliber with 142 bullets,
As im sitting on over 20 pounds of it, making ready for the next USA election!
I’ll send brass and bullets to Lee for a collet die.
Doesn’t mean I’ll use it regularly, but having freedom of choice is never a bad thing.
That would make sense that the guys at IBI are running reamers on the tight side thus having less to resize.
As i know many people now that can’t touch their lands,
Now in both 308 and 6.5x47 Lapua, i can touch lands out of a plastic mag in my iBI barrels, that is not a feature i dislike!
I also scrub my fired casing with krazy kloth lately,
I have absolutely no impurities going in my dies.
Got my fingers crossed that Varget will play well in this caliber with 142 bullets,
As im sitting on over 20 pounds of it, making ready for the next USA election!
Just a small update, rifle is sighted in and shows potential.
First off, taking the razor in spuhr mount off a savage and installing on bighorn, POI wasn't off by more than 3 inches.
And doing load dev, from 36.1gn of varget up to 37.5gn in 0.2gn increment, went well so far.
All my loads we're sub 1/2 moa except for the 37.3gn load, did not shoot the 37.5gn loads.
From 37.1 to 37.3gn I saw a big velocity spike compared to other steps, and group growing bigger.
I figured it was a pressure sign and stopped, so far 6.5x47 Lapua is either good at hiding pressure signs or i'm not looking for them properly.
At 37.3gn my 142gn bullet was going 2780fps.
Will retry this weekend and post results, as I feel today's results weren't that relevant considering I was hearing my heartbeat and seeing it skip in the scope,
Got an infuriating call 5 minutes before shooting, and couldn't shake that one out of my head.
Here I was thinking my 308 did not recoil and was soft since I could spot my own trace,
This is much smoother did not think it would be possible.
Manners huge cheekrest is comfortable but awkward with ear protectors,
I shot it with regular plugs and removed ear protectors for the first time,
Now where can I get premium ear plugs?
First off, taking the razor in spuhr mount off a savage and installing on bighorn, POI wasn't off by more than 3 inches.
And doing load dev, from 36.1gn of varget up to 37.5gn in 0.2gn increment, went well so far.
All my loads we're sub 1/2 moa except for the 37.3gn load, did not shoot the 37.5gn loads.
From 37.1 to 37.3gn I saw a big velocity spike compared to other steps, and group growing bigger.
I figured it was a pressure sign and stopped, so far 6.5x47 Lapua is either good at hiding pressure signs or i'm not looking for them properly.
At 37.3gn my 142gn bullet was going 2780fps.
Will retry this weekend and post results, as I feel today's results weren't that relevant considering I was hearing my heartbeat and seeing it skip in the scope,
Got an infuriating call 5 minutes before shooting, and couldn't shake that one out of my head.
Here I was thinking my 308 did not recoil and was soft since I could spot my own trace,
This is much smoother did not think it would be possible.
Manners huge cheekrest is comfortable but awkward with ear protectors,
I shot it with regular plugs and removed ear protectors for the first time,
Now where can I get premium ear plugs?
Glad to hear that it is working out well for you so far!
I'm a fan of the MSA Sordin Supreme Pro-X's, but these are muffs. They are designed to be shot with rifles, so they are really low profile and don't disturb your cheek wield. They are very comfy if you get the gel cup inserts. Weather proof, so they run in rain, snow, etc. with no issues. The microphones work much better than the cheaper alternatives - the cheaper ones have a tendency to cut in and out and usually sound like garbage.
I prefer to shoot with ear plugs and ear muffs. Sometimes just the muffs if I'm shooting outside and not doing much shooting under a covering of some sort, but definitely need to double up if indoor shooting. A limitation of just ear plugs is that they do not protect your hearing completely, as sound is still transmitted through to the inner ear by a bone called the cochlea. You can still get hearing damage with extended exposure to loud noises with ear plugs.
Currently running the MSA sordin supreme,
In over 10 years of shooting, this is only the second rifle to give me problems interfering with my headset,
The other being M14s running irons.
I’ll give it another try soon and try to change positions, and try to change cheekrest height see if it helps.
Because yes, foam plugs weren’t as effective, and my muzzle brake, does sound louder than my insite arms brake on my 308.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The comb is detachable... shape one that fits your head.
Life is better.
Jerry
Life is better.
Jerry
120 rounds and 4 range trips later I have a better idea what I am dealing with here.
The short scope rail on the Origin and the short LOP of the manners combined with the long eye relief of the razor gen 2, make it hard for me to have a comfortable position prone while having a nice field of view.
To be comfy the buttstock is about 1/2'' off from my shoulder without making contact.
I will have to ditch my Spuhr mount, and replace with rings, so I can move scope forward.
Cheekrest is fine when I get my face closer to action, so simply adding distance for the scope solves a lot here.
Debate with myself is between ARC M10 rings and NF extreme duty rings, will decide soon enough!
While shooting prone today, I could give my bolt some speed as I didn't fear my brass falling from the table to concrete.
With a savage action I barely cleared the shooting mat and often ended up with brass dug into my elbow, now with the Origin action I got to be careful because my brass flies 3ft+ away, very positive extraction/ejection, which is nice.
Bolt lift is heavier than a Savage, but quite a ways lighter than a Deadline (my 2 only other rifles I have owned and can compare).
I have read on the Bix n Andy trigger which has sear engagement adjustability, I guess this could reduce cocking force required if ever I wish to go that way.
As far as accuracy goes, I am still way behind my Savage 308 build.
I can say I am constant sub 3/4 moa, which is not acceptable until I get this settled, given the amount of pesos I got into this.
This may have to do with dealing with 0F brass, uncomfortable setup due to scope being to close to me with it's long eye relief, barrel not fully broken in, 1F brass not fully load dev'ed and so on...
Still waiting to get sub 1/2 moa 5 shot groups before having stock skim bedded if I ever do get it bed.
Until then I heavily doubt bedding or lack of, to be the culprit here.
Accuracy has little to do with action anyways, it's a shooter/load dev/barrel quality kind of combo going on, in my opinion.
Edit :
Forgot to talk about the feeding.
120 rounds later, it has fed from my 12 round MDT metal mags, 10 round MDT plastic mags, 10 round Magpul AICS plastic mags, without any tuning required.
You take any mag off a shelf, click it in, it feeds without the bullet barely if ever touching the feedramp.
I think I have a 2 lug bolt type of action to thank for this, makes for setting up magazine feeding very simple and painless.
The short scope rail on the Origin and the short LOP of the manners combined with the long eye relief of the razor gen 2, make it hard for me to have a comfortable position prone while having a nice field of view.
To be comfy the buttstock is about 1/2'' off from my shoulder without making contact.
I will have to ditch my Spuhr mount, and replace with rings, so I can move scope forward.
Cheekrest is fine when I get my face closer to action, so simply adding distance for the scope solves a lot here.
Debate with myself is between ARC M10 rings and NF extreme duty rings, will decide soon enough!
While shooting prone today, I could give my bolt some speed as I didn't fear my brass falling from the table to concrete.
With a savage action I barely cleared the shooting mat and often ended up with brass dug into my elbow, now with the Origin action I got to be careful because my brass flies 3ft+ away, very positive extraction/ejection, which is nice.
Bolt lift is heavier than a Savage, but quite a ways lighter than a Deadline (my 2 only other rifles I have owned and can compare).
I have read on the Bix n Andy trigger which has sear engagement adjustability, I guess this could reduce cocking force required if ever I wish to go that way.
As far as accuracy goes, I am still way behind my Savage 308 build.
I can say I am constant sub 3/4 moa, which is not acceptable until I get this settled, given the amount of pesos I got into this.
This may have to do with dealing with 0F brass, uncomfortable setup due to scope being to close to me with it's long eye relief, barrel not fully broken in, 1F brass not fully load dev'ed and so on...
Still waiting to get sub 1/2 moa 5 shot groups before having stock skim bedded if I ever do get it bed.
Until then I heavily doubt bedding or lack of, to be the culprit here.
Accuracy has little to do with action anyways, it's a shooter/load dev/barrel quality kind of combo going on, in my opinion.
Edit :
Forgot to talk about the feeding.
120 rounds later, it has fed from my 12 round MDT metal mags, 10 round MDT plastic mags, 10 round Magpul AICS plastic mags, without any tuning required.
You take any mag off a shelf, click it in, it feeds without the bullet barely if ever touching the feedramp.
I think I have a 2 lug bolt type of action to thank for this, makes for setting up magazine feeding very simple and painless.
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Actually it’s the other way around, it gets better around the end of the session.
To be fair i have not done a full load tune yet, and most my brass is still 0F.
I had this slight misconception that 6.5x47 would have nodes all over the place and would be able to tune 0F brass easily.
To resume what is happening in better words, poa/poi do not shift if barely at all, group size is what I’m not happy with.
I did try a few 1F, but load is not at all at the same place.
On 1F i’ll have to load higher as i had lower velocities.
I did spend quite a bit of time to get my 308 load where it’s at, and on the other hand my 308 load works superb in now 3 rifles, i believe i must of stumbled on what they call a pet load.
In 308 i was shooting with a Harris bipod and now this setup i have an atlas cal with spiked feet, stability feels better now than ever.
Just read a bunch on M10 rings.
I’m 90% set on them so far.
Too bad they don’t have a build in bubble level that would be pimpin.
They are narrow compared to Spuhr, and will give me my desired height/eye relief.
6 bolt NF ring wouldn’t allow me to push scope forward as much as ARC M10.
To be fair i have not done a full load tune yet, and most my brass is still 0F.
I had this slight misconception that 6.5x47 would have nodes all over the place and would be able to tune 0F brass easily.
To resume what is happening in better words, poa/poi do not shift if barely at all, group size is what I’m not happy with.
I did try a few 1F, but load is not at all at the same place.
On 1F i’ll have to load higher as i had lower velocities.
I did spend quite a bit of time to get my 308 load where it’s at, and on the other hand my 308 load works superb in now 3 rifles, i believe i must of stumbled on what they call a pet load.
In 308 i was shooting with a Harris bipod and now this setup i have an atlas cal with spiked feet, stability feels better now than ever.
Just read a bunch on M10 rings.
I’m 90% set on them so far.
Too bad they don’t have a build in bubble level that would be pimpin.
They are narrow compared to Spuhr, and will give me my desired height/eye relief.
6 bolt NF ring wouldn’t allow me to push scope forward as much as ARC M10.
Sure that would be appreciated,
I’ll just give Varget and 142 SMK another chance to prove itself.
I will review the whole load process and try to find a new load, we’ll see what gives...
