Black powder cartridge comepetition, knowledge, input, required

[ww270win]

Gent's
A few years ago I found a sporter #1 rolling block. The bore was a washed out 44 caliber. I converted the block to center fire and lined it with a .357 liner. I chambered it in .357 magnum.
I use it for plinking with mild target loads, and black powder.
I asked a board member of the Alberta black powder association, if I could use it in in black powder cartridge rifle competition. He replied, only with original BP calibers.
Which made sense.
I could use my 45 70 for that. But think it's a waste of powder and lead, if the distances are only up to 100 meters.
I thought if I can find a bp caliber in around .357, I could open up the chamber to that cartridge.
In the "Cartridges of the world" book, I found the .35 30 Maynard 1882. In the article it mentioned 358 caliber bullets. They also mentioned making brass from the 38-55.
The cartridge in the picture looked like a straight walled case. Some research revealed that the brass, for the .35-30 1882 was, is, slightly bigger than the .357 rem. maximum brass. The bullet diameter was .359 .
I wonder if that is acceptable, to use a .357 maximum case and sell it as .35 30 Maynard 1882, to be in compliance with the rules. That would be the easiest fix for me since I have axess to a 357 max reamer and already have the bullet molds.
What do you guys think?
Or do I have to find a barrel in 32 or 38 caliber.
Thanks for reading.
WW

 

[iron cat]

Gent's
A few years ago I found a sporter #1 rolling block. The bore was a washed out 44 caliber. I converted the block to center fire and lined it with a .357 liner. I chambered it in .357 magnum.
I use it for plinking with mild target loads, and black powder.
I asked a board member of the Alberta black powder association, if I could use it in in black powder cartridge rifle competition. He replied, only with original BP calibers.
Which made sense.
I could use my 45 70 for that. But think it's a waste of powder and lead, if the distances are only up to 100 meters.
I thought if I can find a bp caliber in around .357, I could open up the chamber to that cartridge.
In the "Cartridges of the world" book, I found the .35 30 Maynard 1882. In the article it mentioned 358 caliber bullets. They also mentioned making brass from the 38-55.
The cartridge in the picture looked like a straight walled case. Some research revealed that the brass, for the .35-30 1882 was, is, slightly bigger than the .357 rem. maximum brass. The bullet diameter was .359 .
I wonder if that is acceptable, to use a .357 maximum case and sell it as .35 30 Maynard 1882, to be in compliance with the rules. That would be the easiest fix for me since I have axess to a 357 max reamer and already have the bullet molds.
What do you guys think?
Or do I have to find a barrel in 32 or 38 caliber.
Thanks for reading.
WW

32/40 for the win!
I also shoot an 8.15x46R ( European equivalent of the 32/40) which is a really nice cartridge to shoot and easy to make from 30/30 brass
Cat

 

[450yukon]

32/40 for the win!
I also shoot an 8.15x46R ( European equivalent of the 32/40) which is a really nice cartridge to shoot and easy to make from 30/30 brass
Cat

But 32/40 wouldn’t work in a.358 liner that he just put in.

 

[tiriaq]

.357Max is a lengthened .357Mag. If .35-30 is made from .38-55, the head is larger in diameter than the .357.
I cannot see why .357 loaded with black powder should be unacceptable. But if the published rules state original cartridges only, so be it.
A .35-30 reamer is going to be special order. Probably eat the better part of $300, and then your are looking at getting dies to form and load the cases. Going to be an expensive conversion.
.357Mag and .357Max would actually be good black powder cartridges - case capacity would be large enough to accept a decent charge of powder.

 

[boxhitch]

......He replied, only with original BP calibers............

calibers or cartridges ? makes a difference

DCRA rule book
"The Cartridge Rifle Class includes non-optically sighted rifles of period or modern
manufacture, with designs considered consistent with the black powder period.
Cartridge rifles must be of single shot design chambered for authentic original
black powder cartridges. Magazine rifles are not permitted."

rounds like the 30-30 and 35 Rem came out just after the turn of the century
even though they are 125 years old and can be down-loaded to bp levels, they are not acceptable either

What do you guys think?

match directors should take the latitude to makes rules for their match for the level of competition that is appropriate, following 'national match' rules all the time does nothing to support shooting sports participation
As long as rules are somewhat in the spirit of the discipline, things should be opened up to variation, even if it is a side-match or 'wild bunch'.
Similar to bpcr, why not allow smokeless powder if the bullet choice and velocity matches bp capabilities in a suitable rifle?

but thats fodder for another big discussion...
rant paused ....for now...

 

[barbarossa]

There s a nice Target rifle in 38/55 built on Winchester low wall for sale at Joe Salter

 

[iron cat]

But 32/40 wouldn’t work in a.358 liner that he just put in.

No it wouldn't, he would ave to rebarrel for sure.
If it were me, I would just go with a 38/55.
One does not need to run a full case of powder to get the potential outof that cartridge at 100 yards.
Cat

 

[old303]

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced in 1898 as a black powder cartridge (and smokeless loadings appeared soon afterward), so it sounds like it should qualify. Granted, it was nominally a revolver cartridge. And its .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt predecessors are even older, and any of the three should chamber in your .357 Magnum rifle.

 

[iron cat]

calibers or cartridges ? makes a difference

DCRA rule book
"The Cartridge Rifle Class includes non-optically sighted rifles of period or modern
manufacture, with designs considered consistent with the black powder period.
Cartridge rifles must be of single shot design chambered for authentic original
black powder cartridges. Magazine rifles are not permitted."

rounds like the 30-30 and 35 Rem came out just after the turn of the century
even though they are 125 years old and can be down-loaded to bp levels, they are not acceptable either


match directors should take the latitude to makes rules for their match for the level of competition that is appropriate, following 'national match' rules all the time does nothing to support shooting sports participation
As long as rules are somewhat in the spirit of the discipline, things should be opened up to variation, even if it is a side-match or 'wild bunch'.
Similar to bpcr, why not allow smokeless powder if the bullet choice and velocity matches bp capabilities in a suitable rifle?

but thats fodder for another big discussion...
rant paused ....for now...

The problem is that the DCRA and APBRA do not always see eye to eye.
For instance, the Ruger #1 i not allowed in Alberta Black Powder cartridge rifle Nor Alberta Black Powder Silhouette competition- or at least it wasn't when I was competing .
Cat

 

[ww270win]

I agree with boxhitch. But also I wouldn't insist on using a caliber that was not close to a bp cartridge.

I wouldn't do any changes to the .357 barrel, other than lengthen the chamber.

The case dimensions I found for the .35-30 Maynard 1882 are : Case length 1.63" Rim diameter .494" Base dia. 0.400 Neck dia .395, bullet dia .359
That's one thich neck wall!
In comparison .357 Remington Maximum: Case length 1.605" Rim diameter .440" Base and Neck dia. .379
It's close. But I can imagine one official would say "close enough", and another would say no.

If I start with a new barrel, the .32-40 is tempting, but it seems to be easier to find dies, molds and brass for the 38-55.

 

[tiriaq]

Those dimensions suggest that a .357Mag barrel could be rechambered for .35-30 Maynard.
A reamer, cases and dies would need to be obtained.

The DCRA rule is because a gentleman showed up one year shooting .303 with black powder. Yes, the very first .303 crtridges were loaded with compressed black powder, but it wasn't really a black powder cartridge.

 

[old303]

A cartridge is what it's loaded with. But when you're up against a rules committee splitting hairs against you all bets are off.

If history shows a cartridge was loaded with black powder first then that really really should qualify it. And the number of years from the invention of metallic cartridges to the invention of nitrocellulose smokeless powder was far less than the number of years onward to the present, so virtually every one of the mainstays of the black powder cartridge era will have been loaded smokeless more times than with the original black by now.

There's also the question of whether the brass needs to be correctly headstamped, or if resized brass with its original headstamp is allowed.

If a match director is being unreasonable you don't have to play in his sandbox.

 

[Licensed to kill]

The problem I see is that you will have a smokeless calibre head stamp on a cartridge that nobody has heard of so you would have to keep a form of providence to prove that you shooting a compliant cartridge and even then, they might refuse you. Almost 30 years ago I went to a black powder shoot, mostly because I wanted to shoot the shotgun event. Shot the rifle and pistol events then went to shoot the clays and was promptly told that the gun I brought was disqualified because it was “too big”. Most were shooting cooey singles, wing masters and the like because they decided, since very few had muzzleloading shotguns that they would allow cartridge as long as they were loaded with black………..but my original 1856, 9ga sxs was not allowed. Packed up and went home and didn’t go back for about 25 years. Be prepared to be turned away if you are not running run-of-the-mill hardware. Kinda like dealing with border security, even when they are clearly wrong and you are clearly right, you will still lose.

 

[gunlaker]

Also check out the 35-40 Maynard from this thread. From Krag cases it looks like.

https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1388811896

Pretty much any bp cartridge can be very accurate at 100m. As mentioned earlier, if you decide to rebarrel, the 32-40 and 38-55 are great choices and easy to get brass and molds for.

Chris.

 

[ww270win]

There s a nice Target rifle in 38/55 built on Winchester low wall for sale at Joe SalterView attachment 1027800

That my friend is advertised as a 38 special. On the canadian web site. We all get exited sometime. Lol.

 

[ww270win]

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced in 1898 as a black powder cartridge (and smokeless loadings appeared soon afterward), so it sounds like it should qualify. Granted, it was nominally a revolver cartridge. And its .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt predecessors are even older, and any of the three should chamber in your .357 Magnum rifle.

I'm aware of that. But shooting black powder, I'm sure the accuracy would suffer pretty quick.

 

[ww270win]

That's before and now. Barrel liner, block converted to center fire, new pins, the block, hammer and receiver lapped to the pins.
I made a new fore end, extractor and the keeper bolt. I left the barrel outside and the but alone. The receiver has some pits. I'm debating
what to do with it.

 

[iron cat]

Those dimensions suggest that a .357Mag barrel could be rechambered for .35-30 Maynard.
A reamer, cases and dies would need to be obtained.

The DCRA rule is because a gentleman showed up one year shooting .303 with black powder. Yes, the very first .303 crtridges were loaded with compressed black powder, but it wasn't really a black powder cartridge.

The Edson Warner rule!
Cat

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Gent's
......
I thought if I can find a bp caliber in around .357, I could open up the chamber to that cartridge.
In the "Cartridges of the World" book, I found the .35 30 Maynard 1882. In the article it mentioned 358 caliber bullets. They also mentioned making brass from the 38-55.
.....
WW

The DCRA website has the nationally acceptable rules for international competition. The agreement was that if the cartridge is an original black powder round as published in COTW, it was allowed. The single exception is .303BR.

 

[cdnrokon]

I did the same thing, I have a custom built 35/40 Lucas very much the same as a 35/40 Maynard 1882 the parent case is a 30/30 or 38/55 blown out to .358 My barrel is a KSArms 1/10 twist 1.25 bull barrel on a Remington rolling block ...I have completed fire forming approx 150 pcs of brass. It is a true pleasure to shoot. another way you could do it is a 357 Max but you better stamp the barrel 38 Ballard XL or make sure someone knows that a full snot charge 357max case will blow up a roller and never forget....

picture # 3 is L to R 35/40 Lucas , 38/55, and 35/55 Maynard

picture #4 is the fire formed 30/30 case blown out to 35/40 Lucas shooting Lyman 249g cast 20/1

38 Ballard Extra Long info