black powder pistol loads?

rollie100

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
72   0   0
Location
BC Canada
i was thinking of buying a blackpowder rifle a while back, but sinse changed my mind smokless in safer from what i hear. cost difference blackpowder to smokless?.

are there blackpowder loads/load data for pistols in... 9mm luger, 40s&w, 45acp- lead or FMJ bullets, TMJ.
i know that the first 1911 45auto pistols used blackpowder, any load data on that?.
and single action revolvers of course use blackpowder.
 
None of the chamberings that you list were ever loaded with black powder and I can`t possibly imagine why you would want to do so.

How did you get the impression that black is more dangerous than smokeless in a rifle

The only way that black powder is more dangerous is if you stick a fuse in the can and stand next to it. But really your not going to be wanting to do that anyway.
 
None of the chamberings that you list were ever loaded with black powder and I can`t possibly imagine why you would want to do so.

How did you get the impression that black is more dangerous than smokeless in a rifle

The only way that black powder is more dangerous is if you stick a fuse in the can and stand next to it. But really your not going to be wanting to do that anyway.

Not unsafe, more ignitable/unstable than smokeless, thats what i was LED to believe not saying thats what i BELIEVE:rolleyes:, in other words i dont know.

and im just asking if its been done or can be done, and if there is load data. not saying thats what im going to do, I will only use smokeless in my guns.

i know the 1911 45 used BLACKPOWDER at one time, and early single action revolvers use BP, CAN you use BP in 9mm luger or 40s&w.
 
Last edited:
You might be able to get the auto's to work with black but you might have to find some lighter springs. The .45 would be your best bet if you wanted to try it.

Nearly every chambering that was developed before the turn of the century was probably loaded with black at one time or other but it really wouldn't be practical in any sort of machine guns or automatics. For things originally loaded with black think straight walled shells rifle shells (and some of the older gentle bottle shaped shells) and revolvers. Cartridges of the World is a good resource for specifics on any particular cartridge.

Smokeless powder, first cordite then nitro based powders were being introduced in the 1880's and were pretty well standard in military stuff by WWI. Commercial black powder loads were discontinued in the 20's.
 
"...the 1911 did have rimmed cases didnt it..." Nope. BP was long gone in military firearms by the time the 1911 was accepted.
 
great explanation, thank you.
Im not willing to try. even if i wanted to try i wouldnt know where to begin. was just curious, i really dont know anything about blackpowder, but its seemed like such a versitile powder that was used in a huge variety of calibers.
so would BP be to underpowdered in a small pistol caliber like the 9mmluger or 40sw?. let alone being to dirty of a powder for an auto pistol.

You might be able to get the auto's to work with black but you might have to find some lighter springs. The .45 would be your best bet if you wanted to try it.

Nearly every chambering that was developed before the turn of the century was probably loaded with black at one time or other but it really wouldn't be practical in any sort of machine guns or automatics. For things originally loaded with black think straight walled shells rifle shells (and some of the older gentle bottle shaped shells) and revolvers. Cartridges of the World is a good resource for specifics on any particular cartridge.

Smokeless powder, first cordite then nitro based powders were being introduced in the 1880's and were pretty well standard in military stuff by WWI. Commercial black powder loads were discontinued in the 20's.
 
The 38 S&W has a case capacity not a lot different than a 9mm and the 45ACP couldn't be a whole lot smaller from that of the 45 Schofield. There were numerous stubby little rimfire cases in everything from .22 up into the .50's that held very little powder. Many were notoriously weak when it came to knockdown potential.

I know from my own experiments that a 45-70 with only 5gr of FFg will shoot nice groups with round balls at 10 yards but it wouldn't be much of a manstopper.

Loading data for nearly any black powder cartridge is basically to fill it till seating the bullet compresses the powder a bit and let loose. Fine tuning gets just as involved and complex as any serious loading for accuracy.
 
You might be thinking of the 45 auto rim. it was the 45 acp case with a rim added for use in revolvers without having to use moon clips, they would not work in a 1911. To my knowledge none were ever loaded with black powder. 45 Colt made the transition from black powder to smokeless. That's a totally different round though.
 
found this in another forum... interesting. so it would WORK, just not so well.

The late gun writer Elmer Keith, in his writings, reported assembling some black powder loads for the 1911 .45 ACP. According to him it worked, functioning the pistol.
Just how long he doesn't say. Black powder fouling would build quickly and jam the gun quickly, I would guess.
Interestingly, when John Browning was developing his .50-caliber machine gun he used cartridges loaded with black powder. He hadn't found a suitable smokeless powder for the cartridge, but also wanted to determine its reliability.
The .38 Special was originally a black powder cartridge. It would transition fine. So would the .357 Magnum.
Smaller auto cartridges like the .32 and .380 ACP would probably not work so well with black powder. It would be difficult to enough black powder in the case to reach a workable pressure level.
Most of today's cartridges could easily be loaded with black powder. Velocity would be low, compared to most smokeless powder loadings, but the darned thing would go BANG.
Soft lead bullets, lubricated with natural substances such as lard, beeswax, vegetable shortening, etc. would be best with black powder. Jacketed bullets, when used with black powder, tend to foul the bore quickly and cause inaccuracy.
Petroleum-based lubricants, when mixed with black powder, create a hard, tarry fouling. A moist lubricant is required to keep the black powder fouling soft, for easy removal by each fired bullet.
Black powder fouling is slightly abrasive. It would accelerate wear in semi-autos and moving parts heavily covered in it. But I think you'd have to fire thousands of rounds to notice any wear.
Incidentally, Browning also invented the Auto 5 shotgun at a time when black powder shotgun shells were common. It was designed to function with either black powder or smokeless rounds. It has no piston, no gas chamber, to become fouled by black powder.
If you wish to experiment with black powder loads in modern guns, remember that black powder fouling is hygroscopic. That is, it attracts moisture. Black powder fouling also contains a substance similar to ordinary table salt. Because it contains salt, and attracts water, it causes rust in short order.
So don't risk your favorite pistol, rifle or shotgun to try black powder loads. If possible, use a stainless steel gun to discourage rusting.
Both gun and deprimed cartridges should be cleaned right away with hot, soapy water. This will dissolve the salts in the fouling and flush them away.
And yes, even the cartridges must be scrubbed clean or the fouling will quickly corrode the brass case.
Probably the worst gun you could use black powder in is the AR15. It has the ****able gas system that blows fouling right back into the receiver area. So, with each shot you'd be blowing even more black powder fouling into the breech and bolt.
Any modern arm will take the pressure generated by black powder. However, most probably won't take the fouling for long. [end quote]


Black powder burns best when it is slightly compressed. Thus, load to nearly the top of the case, then use the seated bullet to compress it.

As for straight vs. necked cases, that is only a concern if you seek accuracy of the highest order, for shooting at targets from many hundreds of yards.
From what I have read, black powder cartridge shooters prefer straight-walled cases for black powder. But they need to squeeze every bit of accuracy they can, because they compete against each other.
For survival purposes, to knock off the occasional deer or defend your home, black powder in necked cases will work just fine.
After all, some of the 19th century black powder cartridges used necked cases with good effect.
There are many requirements to creating an accurate black powder load:
1. Bullet alloy must be comparatively soft, not more than 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. This is about BHn 10. Wheelweights are about BHn 9.
2. On the larger capacity cases, a Magnum Primer assists ignition.
3. Bullet lubricant must be of natural origin, such as lard, beeswax, bacon grease, vegetable grease, vegetable oil or a combination of these.
4. Bullet design - It should have numerous grooves, of ample depth, to hold plenty of bullet lubricant.
5. Rate of rifling twist of the arm. Though I've never tried it, finding an accurate load with a quick rifling twist may be difficult. Compare the 1 turn in 7 inches rate of the 6.5X55 Swedish to the .45-70 with its 1:18 to 1:22 rate and you'll see what I mean.
6. Bullets with absolutely flat bases tend to be more accurate with black powder. Bevel base bullets, from what I have read, aren't as accurate. But again, this comes from Black Powder Cartridge shooters and their accuracy requirements are more stringent than that required for subsistence.

The modern guns most amenable to black powder cartridges would be the revolver, single-shot, lever-action, double-barrel, bolt-action or pump-action.
Cleaning becomes a big concern when using black powder.
Any action that is complicated, that makes it difficult or impossible to reach black powder fouling in it, will eventually gum up or rust.
Single-shot and double-barrel actions would seem to be ideal, but they are deceptive. Often, it is difficult to access the assembly and springs that drive the trigger and hammer or firing pin. This may require a very long screwdriver or socket wrench to remove the bolt that holds the stock to the frame.
Mauser-type actions are fairly accessible for easy cleaning. Some lever-actions are easily accessed, others are difficult. [end quote]
 
some more...

Oh, on 1911's, since we can make them work with tiny target load charges, I see no reason BP, which runs at similar pressures, would not work also? I would expect you might need full weight bullets for good burning and reduced power recoil springs, same as light target wadcutter loads. But otherwise, until the fouling jammed things up, I don't know what the problem might be? I'd have to try it myself, but I'm not anxious enough to clean the gun afterward that I actually want to give it a go. [end quote]
 
Back
Top Bottom