I read somewhere that the higher the velocity the hydrostatic shock causes more blood shot meat. Well I purchased a new 1895SBL (45/70) and shot a small to medium buck double lung through and through with 325gr hornady lever evolution ammo. Over the years, I got just about the same blood shot meat from my .300 savage 150gr ballistic tip @ around 2650fps and about the same as my 7mmSAUM with 140gr accubond @ 3200fps. Is this the norm with the 45/70? I’m a double lung kind of guy and try and stay away from the front shoulder meat but I always seem to have to trim some blood shot meat off the front shoulder. Wondering what others experience?
Bloodshot at different velocities
- Thread starter Camper
- Start date
We trimmed off and disposed of almost an entire front quarter of a doe a friend shot. 300 Win Mag, light bullet, 25 yards away, right in to the bulk of shoulder.
Messy and wasteful.
Am a big fan of ribs, crosswise through almost nothing anyone would miss if it was being accounted for...
The guys that shoot big heavy and slow flat nosed bullets instead of the lighter ones, claim they pretty much eat right up to the hole.
Messy and wasteful.
Am a big fan of ribs, crosswise through almost nothing anyone would miss if it was being accounted for...
The guys that shoot big heavy and slow flat nosed bullets instead of the lighter ones, claim they pretty much eat right up to the hole.
Well you went fast and light and used an expanding modern hunting bullet designed to kill by shock and expansion so your gonna get lots more wasted meat.
45-70 with a 405 gr at 1400fps will go through a 1200lb moose and leave a half inch hole with minimal meat loss because its not killing by shock and speed and expansion it just leaves a massive hole through the animal heart lungs bone. 10 million buffalo were killed this way, I love my 45-70 but it defeats the entire reason for the caliber of you shoot fast light expanding bullets from it
45-70 with a 405 gr at 1400fps will go through a 1200lb moose and leave a half inch hole with minimal meat loss because its not killing by shock and speed and expansion it just leaves a massive hole through the animal heart lungs bone. 10 million buffalo were killed this way, I love my 45-70 but it defeats the entire reason for the caliber of you shoot fast light expanding bullets from it
the spank
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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What I find is each hit gives different results even using the same calibre, bullet weight etc even from the same box of ammo. There are just so many variables in the whole scenario that it only makes sense no two hits are ever going to produce identical results. There is going to be some variance.
So 600fps makes that much difference? I’m not sure I agree that it defeats the purpose of the caliber by shooting 325gr expanding bullet. For me anyways, I have never shot anything heavier than 180gr soft point so I thought moving up to 325gr is a big step. I think for next season I may go with something heavier like the original 405 gr weight. What should I be looking for as far as brand of bullet and is there any expansion with the heavier bullets?
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That's just it your thinking of two different things, Like I said high velocity expanding bullets will do a lot of meat damage because the are designed to impact with massive shock and trauma. The 45-70 was designed long before high velocity expanding bullets were invented they were typically 1200fps on the high end most were subsonic tho just because guns couldn't handle the heavy pressures and they are more like killing like a bow and arrow. They go in and make a hole that cuts through the animal and it bleeds out with the big heavy solid bullet being able to smash bone. The Buffalo were wiped out by these heavy solid bullets but you can't compare them to modern high velocity expanding bullets they are different. A 308 is considered a go to caliber to hunt any big game in North America everyone can basically agree on that but if you were to say your hunting elk with a 308 150gr FMJ you will get a lot of dissent because a FMJ is not considered a hunting round even tho it will most likely kill an elk if you shot it through the vitals it will just zip through leaving a small hole with minimal trauma because no expansion. With the 45-70 your bullets are flat nosed they impact harder and don't zip though like a FMJ they leave a big hole behind that is way more than a 308 FMJ and you will see very minimal expansion but the hole they leave is massive in comparison that is how you have to look at low velocity heavy projectiles like a 45acp its loved because in the end it just leave a much bigger hole big heavy slow projectile are different
Think what people recommend for dangerous game and grizzly bear protection it's generally a big solid heavy bullet that can smash through bone and penetrate vitals for the 45-70 you will find even heavier 500+ grain solids. A guide going into Grizzly country packing a 45-70 will not be loading up with 325gr expanding hornady they will be 400+ grain solids like buffalo bore. Again you cannot think of the bullets the same way
The 325 Hornady is lighter to go faster and need that extra speed because it expands on impact to hit and kill by shock and trauma like a modern bullet it's not wrong per say but that is not a bullet that the 45-70 was designed to shoot because it didnt exist. A ton of 45-70 bullets are solid cast heavy bullets people hunt with those today
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During my years in the North, I butchered some dozens of caribou. Learned how to produce recognizable cuts of meat, rather than chunks, so I did quite a few for other folks, in addition to my own. Never handled a caribou shot with a .45-70, but did see the results of a variety of different calibers.
.30-30 produced the most modest wounds, with the smallest area of bloodshot meat and purple jelly. Rounds like .243 resulted in much larger bloodshot areas. Most high velocity rounds resulted in substantial amounts of damaged meat, and I doubt if one could be told from another. A bad shot with a high velocity round using a rapidly expanding bullet could ruin a significant portion of the critter.
I would think that the plastic pointed 325gr .45 bullet would erupt violently. Saw a fawn whitetail that had been shot at an angle with a .45-70 LeverRevolution bullet, and the wound was bad. Intestines hanging out the far side.
.30-30 produced the most modest wounds, with the smallest area of bloodshot meat and purple jelly. Rounds like .243 resulted in much larger bloodshot areas. Most high velocity rounds resulted in substantial amounts of damaged meat, and I doubt if one could be told from another. A bad shot with a high velocity round using a rapidly expanding bullet could ruin a significant portion of the critter.
I would think that the plastic pointed 325gr .45 bullet would erupt violently. Saw a fawn whitetail that had been shot at an angle with a .45-70 LeverRevolution bullet, and the wound was bad. Intestines hanging out the far side.
I’ve experienced similar results with the FTX bullets. There was a noticeable difference between a 265gr FP and a 265gr FTX in my 444 Marlins with on game performance, more carnage with the FTX. The FTX’s open up fast, it’s even noticeable shooting paper.
prairie lover
CGN Regular
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- southern MB
Ftx in 30-30 are definitely softer than other classic 30-30 bullets like the winchester power point or sierra pro hunter.
Thanks for the good explanation Ravage. I get what you are saying. I think I have been in the mind set that faster is better and the whole reason I bought the gun is because 1 it’s gorgeous, 2. I wanted a short range caliber, and 3 there is something intriguing to me about the 45/70. I think my next purchase will be some big ole heavy boolits a keg of powder and some shiny new brass. Sending a 400-500gr chunk of led at a whitetail seems pretty awesome and I have done the velocity thing now I’ll try the slow and chunky thing. Any suggestions on bullets here in Canada?
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Ha aha ha now your headed down a rabbit hole that will take a backhoe to dig & D9 dozer to backfill behind you.
If you are enquiring about readily available pumpkins, most of the commercial casters use a very hard lead alloy that will smear the nose a bit upon bone impact but wont "expand" much at conventional lead slug velocities...but in the words of the TV personalities on "Forged In Fire"...they will kill.
There are "custom casters" around (one of them being Jethunter on this forum) that will custom blend an alloy to produce a softer more easily expanding slug for you.
Or there is the fact that, as the rabbit hole gets bigger and lets a little more light in on the situation that you will see, way down in there, a complete casting outfit of your own
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Ground Zero
A lot of people try to push simple rules of thumb in order to explain complicated interactions between variables.
Whats going to leave a bigger bruise, poking you hard and face with a knife or smacking you with a 2x4.
Velocity is not the only factor. Velocity, total energy, and bullet geometry all interact to affect how energy is transferred into the target. Two bullets with the same velocity and weight will have very different effects on meat if one is a pointy bullet and the other has a broad flat nose. One will slice like a knife with less damage than the other that is trying to plow through.
Higher velocity does usually translate to more total energy, which may transfer more energy and therefore damage to the meat, but not always.
Some bullets, if too fast, might explode on impact and result in complete energy transfer to the meat, with significant damage. Other bullets with the same velocity and weight might have a stronger construction and pass right through without even expanding, and pass right out the other side with 50 or even 75% of its original impact energy.
The same bullet in the same ammo in the same gun can have very different effects just based on the distance to target.
Its complicated. There are no easy answers, and most hunting applications don't lend themselves to good controlled study.
This is a good explanation.
My spring bear was shot with a 270win starting at 3050fps, at about 80 yards. With the 130gr Interbond through both lungs the bear ran 15 feet leaving a blood trail a blind man could have followed, and did virtually no damage to the meat on any of the quarters... But the Interbond is a bonded bullet and thus doesn't expand nearly as violently as a cup and core bullet (such as the OPs bullet) would.
So velocity certainly isn't the only factor at play here... But it is probably not unreasonable to say high velocity with a cup and core bullet WILL get more bloodshot meat than a bullet that expands less violently, or than that same bullet driven slower.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- A blue part of Ontario
Gentlest cartridge I've seen on deer is 44mag. Eat right to the hole
Well my brother in law hunts with a 300RUM 180gr bullets and I can tell you that it sure put a moose down but not deader than with my 30-06 with 180gr bullets but it sure waste a lot more meet!! We usually waste at least an entire side of ribs when shot in the boiler room... with the 30-06 nearly as bad and really probably only a fraction compare to the 300RUM
38-55 is a step down yet...perhaps too big of a step in the wrong hands.
Northman999
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- Southern Yukon
My experience seems to be the blood shotting is generally related to both velocity and fragmentation of projectiles. The higher the velocity and the more fragments, the more bloodshot and you get in my experience, although it’s not an exact science.
