Bolt Action Milsurp Shooters?

Max-4

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I am looking to buy a bolt action Military rifle for target shooting and plinking gongs with, maybe a bit of hunting. Basically I am looking to reach back into the old days and try to become a good shot with open sights. The days where men went into combat carrying a good bolt action rifle and knew how to use it accurately, really interest me! Being that I want a shooter gun and not a collectable by any means, what is my best option rifle and caliber wise?

1. Lee Enfield No. 4
2. Springfield 1903
3. Mauser K98

Are there any companies making new "full stock" bolt action military type rifles like these? Which cartridge makes the most sense for a shooter looking to fire alot of ammo and become a really good shot with? Are there any other battle rifles I missed that may fit my needs too? I dont want to pay a huge price tag because the rifle is considered "rare" or a "collectable" I am looking to shoot it alot which will ruin its value anyways. Thanks
 
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There are the AIA rifles. New versions of the enfield. Swedish Mauser would be another suggestion
 
Which cartridge makes the most sense for a shooter looking to fire alot of ammo and become a really good shot with? Are there any other battle rifles I missed that may fit my needs too? I dont want to pay a huge price tag because the rifle is considered "rare" or a "collectable" I am looking to shoot it alot which will ruin its value anyways. Thanks


Answer: Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54R. Surplus ammo is cheaper than any others on the list and there are lots of Nagants out there for very reasonable prices. The Finnish Nagants are supposed to the the best of the type.
 
For your intent and purpose I would lean towards the Mosin for the cheaper surplus ammo if you can find it in your 'neck of the woods'.

Cheap surplus .303 and 30-06 is pretty much gone... $30 a box from CT or Walmart for hunting ammo gets pretty hard on the wallet pretty quick.

If you are setup for reloading then pretty much any of the WWII bolt guns would fit the bill.
 
If you don't care about the value, I'd find a full stock No4 that had the end of the barrel chopped or that's been D&T'd. Still services a purpose for shooting, you'll still get what you're looking for out of it, and you could get one in great shape for much cheaper that way. The ammo is more expensive than 7.62x54R, but way easier to get. Any CT/WM carries it.

Although you can get a as new Mosin M44 for a decent price. Try one or another, if you don't like it sell it and get something else.
 
Go for a 6.5x55 swede (Carl gustave or Husqvarna) model M96 or M38. This rifle is an extremely flat shooting, long range rifle and a pleasure to shoot.
I have one of each and will likely get buried with them.
 
If you want to use the rifle in true military trim, and you don't want to spend a bleedin' fortune on ammo, the solution is to pick the most convenient rifle from which you can get acceptable accuracy..... and then handload for the critter.

The Number 4 Rifle is the best on your list. Fast, reliable as a rock, horsepower enough to drop anything in North America, excellent sights. You can't go far wrong with one.
A Garand will do just about the same thing, but you're looking at double the money.

The Number 4 can be tuned to give really excellent accuracy. Might take a little bit of work, but time costs you nothing and there are 10,000 people right here who are willing to help.

You can handload match-consistent .303 ammo for not really a heck of a lot more than you would spend on surplus 7.62x54R that is GUARANTEED to rust your bore and generally shoots all over the South 40. Use the same casings in the single rifle and the brass WILL last a long time. Keep your loads down just a BIT and the brass will last even longer. Watch what you are doing as to case length and anneal the stuff every 7 or 8 shots and it will last even longer. My Ross has fired the same batch 14 times now and the brass is still good.... and it's 68 years old! Weather starting to get nice again.... just about time to fire it all off for the 15th time.

Seriously, if you want a truly historical piece that WILL do the job, old Number 4 generally will fill the bill.

Of course, a pristine, Battalion-marked Mark III Ross will do the job just SO much better..... but it's about 4 times the money.... and nowhere as convenient to handle. Besides, you can't get into your dugout with your rifle slung.... and you CAN do it with a Lee-Enfield!

BTW, a Number 4 with 150 Hornadys can be pure murder on 'yotes at 350 and under, even makes a decent gopher gun at 100 and, as for tin cans..... well, they don't even have a chance!

Have fun!

That's what it's all about.
 
Mosin Nagant rifle: about $125 to $150.

Surplus ammo: about $0.30 per round. (when you find it, stock pile it)

Knowing how to clean your rifle after shooting corrosive ammo: priceless

;)

Lou
 
If your going to buy ammo, get a mosin

If your going to reload, either buy a #4 or a swedish mauser.

the springer will cost you big, if you find one at all, and the mauser K98 if you want a germy one won't be too far behind.

and you'll reload for either of them too.

The sweed will be cheaper to feed, kick less and be more accurate then the #4. If you don't have 20 year old eyes, the sights on the Lee will be much easier to shoot with.

Have fun! If you can find a FR8, its a 98 mauser carbine in 308, or an indian Lee in 308 is a possibility as well.
 
Get a SKS. You will save big time on ammo.My mosin is bleeding me because surplus ammo is getting harder and harder to find. It may not be a bolt but the ammo will not hit you with the big price tag!!
 
"Are there any companies making new "full stock" bolt action military type rifles like these?" "...Are there any other battle rifles I missed that may fit my needs too? I dont want to pay a huge price tag because the rifle is considered "rare" or a "collectable" I am looking to shoot it alot which will ruin its value anyways. Thanks"

Other than the previously mentioned AIA Enfield the Yugo M48 Mauser BO from Marstar, Czech VZ24 from Tradeex or an "Irish Contract" Enfield are about a close to "new full stock" as you're likely to get. They'll run you around the $500 mark but they're worth it IMO. K31 Swiss or the older K11 Swiss (Traddex/P&S Militaria, 7.5x55) can be found in very nice shape for a couple hundred less, and shoot really well. GP11 surplus can still be had from The Shooter's Edge in Cowtown for about $0.60/rnd. The Chilean Mausers - rifles and carbines - in .308 from P&S and Tradeex look interesting. PMC .308 can be had for about $1.00/rnd and is, of course, re loadable.

+1 on the SKS. cheap cheap. If you buy Chinese, or the package deal, even cheaper for high volume shooting. Or pick a favorite and start reloading.
 
If you want a very nice military style rifle that is new go for the AIA Sporter on Marstar's site. If you want a full wood No4, look on the EE, weimajack has an nice No4 MkI, that's priced under $300. He also has a couple of decent mausers at good prices.
If you're not interested in it being a collectable milsurp, go to a banner dealer at the top of the page called Tradex, they have a really decent selection of milsurps, both sportered and refurbed in several decent chamberings. If you are looking for accuracy, for hunting and target shooting, give the 6.5x55 chambered 96 variants a look. There are also a few Husky commercial 98s in 6.5 and 30-06 at reasonable prices. Also check out the EEs on this site. There is usually a decent selection available.
 
If you plan to shoot it a LOT, consider cast bullets. I'm just using a LEE mould and wheelweight metal and I'm getting about 1.6 - 2 MOA out of my Number 4. My barrel will last five-eighths of forever and I'm not beating my arthritic old shoulder black and blue, either. And it costs very little, too: 4 cents for a primer, 20 for powder and just under 4 for a bullet. That's cheaper than surplus, by the way. AND it's more accurate. Much surplus is surplus for a reason.... and often that means that it will no longer do even 2 MOA. When you can beat that with a second-hand wheelweight and a little copper cup, it's time for handloading.

Nice thing is that it doesn't crud the bore and if you really want to enter that milsurp match, or if you want to go blast a Bambi for the stewpot, it's not much trouble to clean the rifle.

Jacketed bullets are at LEAST 4 times as hard on a barrel as cast bullets.... and it gets worse when you go to steel jackets..... and a lot of them were/are.

Have fun!
 
I am looking to buy a bolt action Military rifle for target shooting and plinking gongs with, maybe a bit of hunting. Basically I am looking to reach back into the old days and try to become a good shot with open sights. The days where men went into combat carrying a good bolt action rifle and knew how to use it accurately, really interest me! Being that I want a shooter gun and not a collectable by any means, what is my best option rifle and caliber wise?

1. Lee Enfield No. 4
2. Springfield 1903
3. Mauser K98

Are there any companies making new "full stock" bolt action military type rifles like these? Which cartridge makes the most sense for a shooter looking to fire alot of ammo and become a really good shot with? Are there any other battle rifles I missed that may fit my needs too? I dont want to pay a huge price tag because the rifle is considered "rare" or a "collectable" I am looking to shoot it alot which will ruin its value anyways. Thanks
Hey whats wron with my comarde?
mosin-nagant-294145.jpg

:mad:
 
For ease of finding good ammo and brass, the No.4 is king around here.
If you want to shoot military matches, you'll have to find a full-wood rifle.
If looking for a hunting rig, you can get chopped Enfields for about $175.00 that can really shoot.
Investigate a bit for the ammo,. I had very good accuracy with some factory Federal Classic loadings that had the Sierra 180gr. Pro-Hunter bullet. This one is a soft-point bullet with a flat base and the Enfield's rifling tend to like it.
Good luck!
PP.
 
In any case, learn to reload. Cheap surplus may be around now, but that can change overnight.
Swedes: either a 96/38 or a 38. The 96's are long rifles. While nice for target shooting, a bit long for hunting
Certainly a No4.
98 mousers are collectors items and the prices reflect that, although there are other mousers made for other countries. Moisen nagants are not exactly short rifles either

Finding newUnprimed brass is not a problem for most milsurps while loaded ammo availibility can be an issue. and if you plan to shoot a lot, reloading is the way to go.
 
I think you need to consider a couple more questions before making your choice.

For starters, how often do you anticipate making it out to a range or shooting area in a given season, and perhaps the length of the range. About how many rounds do you reasonably expect to shoot? Some people shoot alot out of their .22 rimfire and just practice enough with their centrefire to sight it in/familiarize themselves to it, while others like to really practice with their centrefire. Do you have all the time in the world, especially during the off season to reload, or is it a better investment of your time and money to buy ammo, which also depends on the calibre and its availabilty. Plus, if you reload, the price and quality of your equipment may effect the speed at which you can churn out rounds, possibly a factor if you want to produce alot of ammo. If you're planning to hunt, is it in thick bush with short range shooting the norm, or do you expect longer shots across farm fields? Might you consider eventually scoping your milsurp with a no-gunsmithing mount? And at the end of the day, money is always a factor.

If you're new to shooting and need lots of practice, don't automatically discount the SKS. For less than $500 you can get a rifle and case of ammo, which could last you for quite a few trips to the range. If you spend each time practicing from the various shooting positions (i.e. off the bench, prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, both supported and unsupported), I think that you'll spend a good amount of time practicing at that from 50-200 yards before you max out on your abilities and need/want to get another rifle. If you just want to hunt deer in the bush, the SKS will do.

A Mosin Nagant M91/30, M38 or M44 carbine could similarly be put through the same regimen of target shooting. The basic rifles cost a bit less and the ammo a bit more when shipments of surplus are available. Various Finn varients or the Repro-Snipers could add some variety for a bit more. The cartridge gives you a bit more range and is suitable for anything that you'd hunt with a 30.06. The sights might be a bit too crude for longer range work though, and the action is not as smooth as most and can take some getting used to. Ammo availability (both hunting and surplus) may be an issue and these rifles would provide a good opportunity for reloading. No gunsmithing mounts for scout scopes are available.

If you move up to an unsportrized Lee Enfield, you'll be paying more for your rifle (about $350 plus tax and shipping for Enfields from India or Pakistan is not unreasonable), and surplus ammo is virtually non-existant. You can however find .303 British in any Canadian Tire or Walmart that sells ammo, and I'm always scouring the range for any left behind brass. There's lots of people out there who know how to accurize these rifles, and the peep sights on the #4 and 5 models are probably better suited for hunting. It's better than 30.30 or 7.62x39, but not quite as powerful as .308 or 30.06. As one of the other posters mentioned, casting bullets are a good option with these rifles and have given me some good shooting, but casting bullets can be a hobby in its own right.

The Swedish Mausers are a good bet, though they will share the same issues of surplus ammo availability as the Enfields. They are a good candidate for reloading, shoot a fine cartridge for hunting that doesn't kill one's shoulder and are amazingly accurate rifles. If you can get an M96 or M38 (shorter rifle) for a decent price like $300 I say go for it. If you don't like it, someone from here will buy it off of you in very short order.

The Swiss rifles are also very good shooters. Ammo availability is the major issue (as well as the rifles, the bulk of which have already been imported to North America), but if you reload, they use .30 cal bullets that are readily available. These rifles can be amazingly accurate, and you could probably get the diopter sights or no-gunsmith scope mounts for the K31 if you want to take it a step further. For hunting, it's much like a .308 in performance.

There's usually a variety of other Mausers available on the market, and the 8mm Mauser cartridge is usually available at most sporting goods stores, though probably not at your local Walmart or Canadian Tire. European companies load the 8mm to 30.06 performance levels, though N. American companies load them to little more than 30.30 levels on account of fears of liability issues (there's more ancient surplus rifles around here than in Europe that don't take well to the full load). A Russian Capture might not be too expensive (they were about $350 with taxes and shipping when they were available up to about a year ago). Though surplus ammo isn't readily available anymore, I've had good luck shooting cast bullets through two of mine (a Brno and RC). Lots of history and character in these rifles. No gunsmithing scout scope mounts are an option if you ever tire of the open sights, which in the case of German Mausers are hard on my eyes.

Some mausers were rechambered to 7.62 Nato/.308 which can make them more practical for both target shooting and hunting, but you may want to research those models that were converted, since some of the pre-98 actions can be pushed to their limits by commercial .308, which is hotter than the NATO load.

Most of the options above are still available for reasonable prices and good for hunting, but you will probably have to get into reloading for any significant amount of shooting with anything other than the SKS or Mosin bolt guns. Aside from a few semis like the SVT 40 or Norinco M14s that might be available within the same price range, most other semis (i.e. M1 Garand) will probably put you back further in the pocket book.
 
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