box lock hammerless with pics- price check please

[tigertrout]

Hi guys

hope there are some experienced double gun fellows out there, looking for Canadian prices for the following. please let me know from a scale of 1-10.
crap being 1 and new in box being 10.

1st gun

Fred. K. Williams SXS, London - Birmingham marked, 12 bore and 2and 3/4 inch chamber, 95% blue on fluid steel nitro proofed barrels and receiver (possible reblue), small chip out of fore stock, butt stock is very good but for a small toe chip and the original butt plate has been changed and a recoil pad installed. I believe the original stock has not been cut when they installed the pad. bores are excellent, it is a hammerless boxlock with extractors not ejectors. has very nice engraving. I have not seen the gun as of yet so am trying to perform a diagnosis over the phone.

first pic description

1 1/8, NITRO PROOF, a diamond with a "12" above and "0" inside of it, a "NP" with a crown on top, a fraction (13 over 1), "3V" with a crown over it, BP with a crown over it, one barrel says "CHOKE" on it, and both barrels have another symbol that is punched a little deeper with a crown over it (but I can't tell what the symbol isit is). The serial number is 117707, and it is found on the underside of one of the barrels, and on the underside of the forend.

2nd gun

"New Worcester" marked on either side of frame, American double barrel shotgun. Made by Rheinhard Torkalson, who worked in Worcester, Mass from 1886-1888 and in 1898. Damascus barrels 28" long, 16 gauge. Barrels have nice damascus finish. Stocks are crap, nicely checkered on wrist and forearm, Checkered hard rubber buttplate fine, Mechanically good, box lock hammerless, non ejector. bores are excellent, there is no finish left on receiver.

On the New Worcester, the only thing under the barrels is the serial number (12###), which is also found under the forend, and on the underside of the trigger guard. Under the forend it also says "Pat May 12 91".

any help would be appreciated.

Sean

 

[bluedcanoed]

1st gun
One would want to know chamber length and what strength cartridges it was proved for (and is it still in proof) to be able to evaluate it as a working gun.

2nd gun
Sounds like a lower quality gun that has little collector value. The reference to the woodwork needing replacement and the current costs for this suggest it woud have minimal value.

As always, the best way to get accurate estimates on this forum is to provide plenty of high quality, detailed photos.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[tigertrout]

williams

pics added...............

 

[straightshooter]

Second bluecanoe's comments - value as a working gun will be dramatically affected by suitability for use with nitro loads and chamber length (although chamber length is less of a factor than the pressures for which it is proofed).

Your gut instinct that the finish could be a re-blue is correct. From the pictures, it can be determined that both the metal and the wood have been refinished. For a British shotgun, this detracts from the value less than the same scenario with an American make. Reason being that periodic refinishing is both expected and acceptable in the UK market. American collectors, conversely, tend to avoid refinished pieces.

The quality of the refinishing is the critical factor with British guns. It's difficult to tell for certain from the pictures, but my impression is that the re-blue was done in North America, where the processes used often yield a lighter, bluer tone than the typically darker finish characteristic of UK craftsmen.

With these vintage guns, "ringing" the barrels, checking the lock up for looseness, and close inspection of the locks, ejectors, etc. are all important as value depends entirely on the investment that would be needed to restore to original condition. Whether commercial shells are still available, nitro or BP, original or modified, and the relative rarity of the particular gun all have a bearing.

 

[tigertrout]

more info

more info added .........how about some price ideas....????

 

[straightshooter]

From your expanded description:

Originally proofed in the black powder era (likely earlier than 1905). Reproven for nitro at a later date. The proof mark that is hard to see clearly is probably the mark of the Birmingham proof house. Does it look like it could be crossed standards with axe heads at the tops of both poles? For some curious reason, that stamp is typically quite deep (and consequently somewhat obscured).

LOOKS in good shape (no obvious looseness, but who can tell from a picture). My personal opinion is that, properly refinished, it should have been colour case hardened receiver and furniture. Barrels blued, but with the dark, almost black tone of British finishes. (sadly, it was probably more attractive with the original patina, than it is refinished)

I'd bet it's a solid gun that'll make a great shooter (for lead, at least). On that basis, it's worth between $350 and $700, depending on actual condition on close inspection. Again, my opinion only, the refinish on this particular piece detracts from the collector's interest in the gun. Classic British boxlock otherwise.

 

[North of 58]

I'll take a shot at the proof marks. The 12 and 0 inside the diamond is the chamber dimension. The NP under a crown is the Birmingham nitro proof mark, they started using this in 1904. If it was nitro proofed after 1954 it would have BNP under a crown. The 13 over 1 is the bore size, slightly smaller than a standard 12 bore but I don't recall what it represents. If the current bore size is larger than 13/1 by a certain amount it would be considered out of proof. The 3v under a crown is actually BV, the Birmingham view mark since 1904. Does the deep mark look like it might be an intertwined BP in italics under a crown? That is the Birmingham provisional proof mark and should be on there. I don't see a reproof mark. After nitro proofing was started they still stamped the black powder marks as well. Others that visit this site know more about the proof marks than I do, maybe they will correct me. It's been reblued, the question is whether a hot or rust blue process was used. Guns with soldered ribs should only be rust blued. The stock head has been pinned. If the barrels ring and the ribs are secure if would make a good grouse gun. I think SS has the price range about right if the barrels are good.