brass become hard to chamber after FL resizing?

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rw1009

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Hi guys

My case gauge is still on its way so I tried to chamber test my resized empty brass.
The brass was fired from the same gun which I tried to chamber it.
Before resizing, the bolt can be closed fairly easily. However, it requires a lot more force to close the bolt after resizing.
I have even tried resizing without the expander ball but still the same.
Just curious what could be the cause of this problem?

Rem 700 in 308 win.
FC 308 brass from blue box.
RCBS FL die

Thanks
Ray
 
My bet is the die is not coming into contact with the shell holder and bumping the shoulder back. I have fired cases that were .025" longer than spec through a match chamber without any problems, so I doubt an empty case that is too long would cause a chambering problem.
 
Sherlock Gnomes said:
Two things come to mind. One is that the fl die is not setup properly or second is that the case needs to be trimmed.
Click to expand...

Yup! One or the other or both. If the shoulder isn't being bumped back far enough by full length resizing then the bolt will be difficult to close but it won't be super dangerous. If the case length is too long, very dangerous pressure conditions could be generated as the case neck will be getting squeezed into the throat. Best to figure it out and remedy before firing any more reloads.
 
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Unless I'm reading it wrong he's saying that a fired case fits well before resizing, if that's so it doesn't sound like should bump is the issue. I would try backing the sizing die off some to size the neck but keep from resizing the body too much and try fit again to see what happens.
 
What is the over all length of your once fire brass? and what is the over all length of the resized brass?
Your 308 brass should be trimmed to 2.005 after resizing.
 
Try smoking a case over a sooty candle and seeing where it rubs on chambering.

I had this problem with a model 94 30-30 once - you had to squeeze hard to get the lever closed

There was no doubt it was the shoulder, and my die was set to fully cam over on sizing.

I was about to shave either the die or the shell holder when a clerk at WSS suggested I try LEE dies. I forget if I had Lyman or RCBS at the time. He said that Lee were all small base dies (probably the wrong term).

But whatever the reason they worked.
 
crashcollins said:
Unless I'm reading it wrong he's saying that a fired case fits well before resizing, if that's so it doesn't sound like should bump is the issue. I would try backing the sizing die off some to size the neck but keep from resizing the body too much and try fit again to see what happens.
Click to expand...

It is if the full length die is reducing the diameter of the taper on the body back to SAAMI specs. That brass has to go somewhere so it will push out the shoulder slightly. If the shoulder was already at fire-formed length for the chamber, after full length resizing without bumping that shoulder back, it is now that much too long. Not really dangerous, just enough to make the bolt tough to close.

What IS potentially dangerous is if the case length is too long and the neck is getting shoved into the start of the lands and is therefore squeezed tightly around the bullet. This can generate extreme pressures.
 
As stated above by rick357 when you full length resize and squeeze the case smaller in diameter the brass flows upward moving the shoulder forward.

And during the last few thousandths as you push the case into the die the shoulder is pushed back down.

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Below is a fired case from my AR15 being measured with a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. And after measuring the "fired" case I adjust the die for .003 shoulder bump.
I find the Hornady gauge used with a digital vernier caliper easier to "see" and use than a standard drop in case gauge. And many of these drop in case gauges can not measure your fired cases. Meaning you will not know the "fired" length of the case and be able to adjust the die for minimum shoulder bump.

H0SXHH8.jpg


Bottom line, adjust your die downward until it makes hard contact with the shell holder and then turn the die 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn more. If the case still does not chamber you may have a bad shell holder or die. A simple fix for this is to lap a few thousandths off the top of the shell holder at a time until the case chambers properly.

NOTE, in over 47 years of reloading I have only had to lap one shell holder for a tightly headspace European made .270 Win rifle. And most resizing dies will push the case shoulder back further than needed when the shell holder makes hard contact with the die and the press cams over.
 
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I had a similar issue with .223 and it turned out my die wasn't setup properly (newbie loading rifle for the first time). I had it set to just contact the shell holder, and once I added a 1/4 turn to it (like bigedp51 said), it bumped the shoulder back and all was right in the world (my case gauge).
 
CobraGuy said:
I had a similar issue with .223 and it turned out my die wasn't setup properly (newbie loading rifle for the first time). I had it set to just contact the shell holder, and once I added a 1/4 turn to it (like bigedp51 said), it bumped the shoulder back and all was right in the world (my case gauge).
Click to expand...

Dies and chambers vary in diameter and length and measuring your fired case before and after sizing will tell you a good deal.

Example I have a Lee full length .223 die that will push the shoulder back .009 shorter than the fired length. And this same Lee die will reduce the case diameter "MORE" than my RCBS small base die.

Below the Wilson and Dillon case gauges do not check case diameter and the JP Enterprise gauge does. The JP Enterprise gauge is made from a chamber finish reamer and if it drops drops all the way into this gauge the cartridge will fit any chamber.

As you can see below the reversed case inserted base first dropped much further into the Wilson and Dillon .223 gauges.

KSB3ZvP.jpg


I measure the cases with the Hornady gauge and the final loaded cartridge is given a final plop test in the JP Enterprise gauge. This insures the case is small enough in diameter for reliable extraction from semi-autos or tight chambered bolt actions.
 
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Assume you have now adjusted so the die bottom makes hard contact with the SH BEFORE the press lever hits bottom or cams over?

If not, start there... alot of presses have too much spring so when the sizing forces reaches a certain point, it is the press that is moving vs the case into the die.

Next up, better lube... some new gen lubes do not work well. Easiest to find and hopefully, you have already... RCBS lube in a 2oz bottle. Put an even but thin layer on the case body, that should work well. Dillon spray lube does work well too (lanolin and isop alcohol)... if things still do not size enough,

Then you need to modify the die bottom - machine off 5 thou to start and keep taking off the bottom until you size the case adequately but not excessively.

Shell holder top can also be milled off and given their low cost, easy to sacrifice.

Either way, the case is not being sized enough.

My guess it is the press set up and lube.... start there and likely the problem goes away.

Jerry
 
Wow super appreciated for ALL the inputs.
I will try to adjust the die as a start.
Just one more question, after looking at bigedp51's picture, my understanding is that when the handle is fully pressed there shouldn't be any space in between the shell holder and the die am I correct?
I now think the problem might be my reloading bench. At the end of stroke the table top will start to flex a little bit so the SH never kissed the die.
 
rw1009 said:
Wow super appreciated for ALL the inputs.
I will try to adjust the die as a start.
Just one more question, after looking at bigedp51's picture, my understanding is that when the handle is fully pressed there shouldn't be any space in between the shell holder and the die am I correct?
I now think the problem might be my reloading bench. At the end of stroke the table top will start to flex a little bit so the SH never kissed the die.
Click to expand...

Reinforce your bench so that it remains rigid under the force you must apply to the press; a boxed "H" made out of 2X4s should do the trick, ensuring there is reinforcement at the immediate front and rear of the press. I have a piece of flat steel inlaid across the front of my bench, but while its proven handy, you don't need to go that extreme.

I almost always adjust my FL sizing dies so that firm contact is made between the shell holder and the base of the die as the press handle cams over, and actually compresses the shell holder contact on the ram. Some insist this overworks the brass, but to me reliable trouble free cycling of the action is more important. Occasionally you might encounter a shell holder that is a tad thick, preventing full length resizing, but they are easily thinned on a small lathe or on a belt sander.

Another technique you can employ is to color the case neck with a Sharpie; this provides a visual indication as to how much of the neck is resized. Incrementally lower the die in the press until you can see that the neck is resized to the juncture of the shoulder, at which point the shoulder should be bumped sufficiently to ensure easy chambering. Lock the die into place there. Use a wrench to secure the lock ring so the die cannot move out of adjustment as you resize your brass, taking care to ensure that the die doesn't move under the force of the wrench. Be sure that the decapping/neck expanding rod is high enough in the die that you don't bend it against the web of the brass, now that the case extends deeper into the die.
 
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rw1009 said:
Wow super appreciated for ALL the inputs.
I will try to adjust the die as a start.
Just one more question, after looking at bigedp51's picture, my understanding is that when the handle is fully pressed there shouldn't be any space in between the shell holder and the die am I correct?
I now think the problem might be my reloading bench. At the end of stroke the table top will start to flex a little bit so the SH never kissed the die.
Click to expand...

The shell holder and die touching is normally, but not always the case. It all depends on the make of the die & shell holder, the machining of the die & shell holder, the wear of the die & shell holder, and the make and type of the press. On most presses, the shell holder and die should touch and in fact most single stage presses should cam over and lock, but if this pushes the shoulder back too much, it can lead to case separation problems. On these, the die and shell holder, when set up properly, may not lock up on cam over, and in fact may not touch. I like a light cam over lock-up as I know, for certain, that a consistent amount of movement and pressure is being applied each and every time I do that stage. If cam over results in too much shoulder set back you can either back out the die until this does not occur (in which case your die and shell holder may not touch) or you can get Redding competition shell holders which back off at 0.002" increments.

With some dies, the opposite is also the case and the shoulder does not get pushed back far enough, even with the press cammed over on those which support this. That is where you have to 'adjust' the die or the shell holder as per Jerry's instructions by 'machining' off a few thou at a time. Good emery cloth held flat on a flat surface. Hold the shell holder and sand the top surface, the side that the shell goes into, 5 or so strokes, rotate 60 degrees, 5 strokes, and repeat 'ad nauseum' until the proper amount is removed. Rotating between sets of strokes will help to eliminate or reduce canted surfaces. I prefer to 'adjust/machine' the shell holder if necessary. They are cheaper and easier to replace than dies if you screw up. Yes, you have to test by resizing empty fired brass for fit and function in your rifle.
 
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rw1009 said:
Wow super appreciated for ALL the inputs.
I will try to adjust the die as a start.
Just one more question, after looking at bigedp51's picture, my understanding is that when the handle is fully pressed there shouldn't be any space in between the shell holder and the die am I correct?
I now think the problem might be my reloading bench. At the end of stroke the table top will start to flex a little bit so the SH never kissed the die.
Click to expand...

By all means reinforce the bench but you can adjust the dies to overcome. Run the sizing die in another 2 to 3 turns... The SH will hit the bottom of the die LONG before your lever gets to the bottom.

Sacrifice a case and see if the problem goes away... Now you know where the problem lies and can fix... of just use it that way as long as the case is now not oversized.

Jerry
 
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