BSA No 1 Mk III* 410 musket

cantom

cantom

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I bought one the other night. It's made by BSA, it's either 1912 or 1913, hard to make it out with my eyes. It is like a new gun, beautiful shape. The owner had hand reamed the chamber to accept modern 410 shells(sacrilege!!), thus it is a shooter. Bore is shiny and new looking. Under the stamps on the right side it's been scribed 410 2 1/2"
Most of these I've seen were Ishapores in so so shape. There's a few examples on the CS site. If it had been one of those, I wouldn't have been interested, but when I saw the condition and BSA I grabbed it.

I don't know much about these. Can anyone point to a link giving the history of these muskets? Are they called a Forager?

I know that there are 410/45 Long Colt Derringers about- I just saw one the other day. I wonder if a 45 LC could be fired out of this rifle? I saw a site in the US where someone said one of these muskets hits bang on at 75 yards with 410 slugs.
 
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Its not a forager. Check the proof marks on the barrel. It may have been commercially smoothbored in the UK so that it could be sold under a shotgun licence. The musket conversions were not in .410 2 1/2", while one smoothbored for easier sale in the UK would be. The musket conversions for use in India were chamered for a straight .303 case, and used a single round ball, not a shotshell. The thought was to produce a single shot, short ranged, less lethal weapon for guard and police use.
If it was bored and chambered for 2 1/2" .410, having it reamed to 3" would have no effect on value. If a .410 musket is reamed to 3", purist collectors would be disappointed.
I think Timberlord has a similar SMLE.
 
.410 Musket

If I recall correctly, a batch of these came into Canada a little over 10 years ago. Many that I have seen are VERY rough, obviously put together in India from junk rifles for police use. I have heard, however, that many of these were rechambered by importers so that they would have a broader customer base in Canada. I have a couple, both in pretty nice shape. I actually bought some .410 slugs the other day to try in the one with the longer chamber.
 
myenfield said:
If I recall correctly, a batch of these came into Canada a little over 10 years ago. Many that I have seen are VERY rough, obviously put together in India from junk rifles for police use. I have heard, however, that many of these were rechambered by importers so that they would have a broader customer base in Canada. I have a couple, both in pretty nice shape. I actually bought some .410 slugs the other day to try in the one with the longer chamber.
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I've been told to watch the 410 shells...the chamber must have been lengthened enough to allow the shell to open, otherwise you can end up with a dangerous situation pressure wise...The guy I bought this from has fired it, it came with a full box of 410 shells.
 
I may have one of these in question which I got from CollectorsSource about a year and a half ago...
BSA 1918 ShTLE .410 2 1/2" ( sporting ammo ) BNP 3 1/4 ton ,
( not to be confused with the Indain Ishapore conversion using .303brit brass and still with the 2.222" chamber )
Fulton regulated stamp on the top and still has cork bedding along with springed barrel supports and a nice , crisp 2 stage tigger ;)
The story I got about these was ...
England went through a stiff gun control program inwhich the average Joe had alot of red tape to deal with to own a center-fire rifle. Shotguns were much easier to license , so , No1's were converted so fellas can keep thier guns....If thats correct , I bet the owner had quite a desion to make.
I used this for abit of rabbit hunting and busted a few clay's ...fun gun!!
Offhanded shooting with slugs at 50yd I was able to stay inside a 6" black bull.
There was a few miss fires , which looked like light stikes on the primer .
I tried 3" shot ammo which worked very well with no missfires, however I'm havn't tried 3"slugs.
Fuzzy photo , sorry..
Inside the diamond shaped stamp is also 410
410stamps.jpg

BSA4101.jpg

1918BSA410.jpg
 
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The UK regs also involved welding in the magazine and fixing it at 2 rounds last time. The almost smooth bores from before the 1988 act were just really worn rifles that everyoneshot ball through. I rescued a post 88 act P 14, spent a fortune on restoring it, ok about £300 but it wins the club iron sights only most years!
 
I've been told to watch the 410 shells...the chamber must have been lengthened enough to allow the shell to open, otherwise you can end up with a dangerous situation pressure wise...The guy I bought this from has fired it, it came with a full box of 410 shells.
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I wouldn't mind one, but without a doubt I'd want the chamber bored a bit more so to accept the 3" .410 shot for sure, and allow the case to open properly with a nice forcing cone...any good gunsmith worth their weight in salt could do this...esp' one that knows shotguns. :)
 
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.410 Musket

Any of these conversions I have seen have the magazine well filled with a block of wood making it single shot only. If I remember right (I don't have one in front of me at the moment) the block of wood is held in place by a couple of wooden dowels that travel right through the fore end. While I believe any I have seen or owned are Indian conversions, I can certainly attest to seeing rifles smoothbored for legal ownership in the UK. Sadly, one of the last pieces like this I came across was a Boyes anti tank rifle, smoothbored.:(
 
myenfield said:
Any of these conversions I have seen have the magazine well filled with a block of wood making it single shot only. If I remember right (I don't have one in front of me at the moment) the block of wood is held in place by a couple of wooden dowels that travel right through the fore end. While I believe any I have seen or owned are Indian conversions, I can certainly attest to seeing rifles smoothbored for legal ownership in the UK. Sadly, one of the last pieces like this I came across was a Boyes anti tank rifle, smoothbored.:(
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The UK has really been hammered with gun control laws...it's sad.

This gun I got has a normal Enfield magazine with no spring or follower. It removes as per usual. I'll try my other no 1 mag with follower and see if it works. He said the empties could just fall into the mag after extraction.
He also mentioned a light primer strike issue, he had had one shell that didn't go off. We looked at the firing pin and it looks fine. I also got a firing pin removal tool from him.
 
The only stamps for the 410 are on the left ( as shown above).
This 410Enfield has all matching serial numbers ( stocks , barrel , bolt , reciever , nosecap) , so I'd say this the original barrel , bored out.
I also tried to feed 2 1/2" shells out of the mag....
...just about , but not quite right...They keep getting caught on the front lips of the mag and I'm not going to mess with it.
Single-shot is fine for my shooting needs anyhow .
The 410's with the wood plugged magwell is likely the Enfield Ishapore conversion and are actually the "original" conversions.
 
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A properly converted Musket will be marked on the left side of the Butt Socket with the calibre, date and place of conversion. Mine is a 1914 BSA SMLE and is marked on the left side of the Butt Socket with RFI
.410
1946

which is just fine with me. They made it, they opbviously knew what they were doing. I am aware that lots of rifles have been bored out to .410 for sale in Europe and especially in the UK; they would not have the Ishapore stamping on the left side of the Butt Socket.

I am shooting my Musket with blown-out .303 casings and having a ball with the thing. For a while I was using 8 grains of Unique and two 000 Buck (.360") balls with a standard .410 wad and it was shooting quite nicely. Increasing the load just ruined the accuracy in my gun. Now have obtained a .375" round ball mold, so we will see what we will see, likely later this Fall or next Summer.
 
I'm looking at one right now. It is over-priced, but in commercial .410 now, so if I add the cost of a 2" chambered example, plus the cost of having the chamber extended, it might be only slightly so. Otherwise, all matching and in very good condition, the nicest Ishy musket I have seen.

My question is: there are traces in the grain of the buttstock wood of a yellow band just behind the wrist band. In Indian use, what would that have signified? It must have been removed long ago, because the patina in that area matches the rest of the gun quite well.

It was originally made at RFI in '41, converted in I think '49.
 
Ognat said:
I'm looking at one right now. It is over-priced, but in commercial .410 now, so if I add the cost of a 2" chambered example, plus the cost of having the chamber extended, it might be only slightly so. Otherwise, all matching and in very good condition, the nicest Ishy musket I have seen.

My question is: there are traces in the grain of the buttstock wood of a yellow band just behind the wrist band. In Indian use, what would that have signified? It must have been removed long ago, because the patina in that area matches the rest of the gun quite well.

It was originally made at RFI in '41, converted in I think '49.
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Is that one of the ones from CS, and if so how much is it?
 
Not from CS if that is Collectors Source, but one that I happened to see recently. The CS one that is online right now looks pretty grungey. Rusty and it has that dark, grease-soaked look that so many Ishies seem to have. That is for $325 and the one I am looking at is about the same I think, asking. But in far, far nicer condition.

I am torn because on the one hand re-chambering to commercial .410 is a sacrilege from a milsurp collection standpoint, yet adds immeasurably to the potential enjoyment of the piece.

Funny that if anyone talks about reaming out an Ishy 410 nobody bats an eye, but if you talked about changing the calibre of a No. 4 you'd be chased off the typical milsurp site and branded Bubba. Not trolling here, just observing. No doubt Ishy's occupy a certain untouchables' caste in many collectors eyes, but I find them as intriguing as anything else, in some cases more so.
 
Ognat said:
Not from CS if that is Collectors Source, but one that I happened to see recently. The CS one that is online right now looks pretty grungey. Rusty and it has that dark, grease-soaked look that so many Ishies seem to have. That is for $325 and the one I am looking at is about the same I think, asking. But in far, far nicer condition.

I am torn because on the one hand re-chambering to commercial .410 is a sacrilege from a milsurp collection standpoint, yet adds immeasurably to the potential enjoyment of the piece.

Funny that if anyone talks about reaming out an Ishy 410 nobody bats an eye, but if you talked about changing the calibre of a No. 4 you'd be chased off the typical milsurp site and branded Bubba. Not trolling here, just observing. No doubt Ishy's occupy a certain untouchables' caste in many collectors eyes, but I find them as intriguing as anything else, in some cases more so.
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<untouchables' caste> Hehe, indeed. :)

My British .410 conversion was also reamed to take commercial .410 shells, I'm glad it was, makes it more worthwhile to have around. The bore is like a mirror in that one.
 
quite a few were reamed to .410 as the rifling was shot out or Oval bore as the trade here used to describe it!
 
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