"Bulldog" revolver

Fox

Fox

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Anyone know anything about short barreled "bulldog" revolvers?
Did they come in 44 Russian?
What are the chances that something like this would fall into an antique category?

I really wish I had a picture of this revolver, the only information I was given about it is that it says "Bulldog" on it, has been around "forever" and shot 44 Russian.

I wonder if it actually is a Webley, ammunition for the thing is an unknown as have been told that nobody has seen it shot.
 
All entirely possible. Without any information at all I'd guess a Belgian bulldog in some manner of 44 cal that fits 44 russian cartridges. You'll need clear side photos along with photos of any and all markings, especially on the frame and cylinder. Important markings can be quite small.
 
H Wally said:
All entirely possible. Without any information at all I'd guess a Belgian bulldog in some manner of 44 cal that fits 44 russian cartridges. You'll need clear side photos along with photos of any and all markings, especially on the frame and cylinder. Important markings can be quite small.
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It is about 1000kms away from me, but I heard that some pictures were taken. I will see what I can do about posting them here if I can get them.

What are the chances this falls into the pre-1898 category?

I cannot say this is exactly it but this is a google image that is close that is for sure.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/dbd655dfbc0b9a3f6f8528e7d0b1f923/tumblr_mjrwd4yy1N1s57vgxo1_1280.jpg

I will have to get actual pictures I know.

Would there be any way to date these to get a verification letter if it was considered antique?

Thanks again
 
Just make sure it actually shoots 44 russian and doesn't just chamber it.

I have one with a bore of .401 but chambers 44 russian. I'm still trying to figure that particular problem out.
 
Answering anything further will require some good pictures and proof/make/model stampings. All bulldogs looked relatively similar and there were a huge number of manufacturers. Quality varied a lot too. Littlegun.be has a selection of photos of that era's Belgian guns, but from experience, you'll need pics to actually know what you're dealing with.
 
giveitago said:
Just make sure it actually shoots 44 russian and doesn't just chamber it.

I have one with a bore of .401 but chambers 44 russian. I'm still trying to figure that particular problem out.
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sounds like .38-40...and a problem for sure because that makes it a prohibited weapon.

38-40_zps9072f571.jpg
 
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Step 1 is to find out if it is legal to own, I have my restricted now but not prohibited and if it is antique then I will worry about the rest.

Going to try to get pictures shortly, now that I know it is close to that magic age I care a little more.

Thanks guys
 
.38-40, like the .44-40, is much too fat at the base to chamber in many old revolvers which actually were .442 or .450.

I have an 1858 which the RCMP INSIST is a .44-40. The rounds do not fit, brass does not fit..... and the conversion was done in 1868, which is 5 years before the .44-40 was even designed. It is actually a 44/100 Revolver, which is ancestral to the .44 American, Russian and so forth.

Another thing to watch for is that many old revolvers were chambered straight-through. BASE diameter becomes trebly important in those cases.

Get some photos and make sure you get a good one of the proof marks. Likely this will be a Belgian-made gun.... and they changed their basic proof mark in 1893, so that will give you one reference date at least.

Good luck.
 
giveitago said:
No, it's not a 38-40. The case length of a 38-40 is to long for the cylinder.
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X2. Probably a Forehand & Wadsworth, I've the same unit(pocket model by the size difference). At least I got mine cheap, because it's an enigma to figure out what to shoot out of it.
44 Russian fits like a dream. But the muzzle on mine is oval, lol. Really, it a 5 groove bbl so the caliper is always on a land and groove. Another fellow on here kept saying I was measuring Land to land then groove to groove. But it's oval.
It does taper from .430 down in the bbl!

I disremember the dimensions but they were far enough that I'd not fire it

And folks slag on Belgian revolvers for shoddy quality, wow.
Shiny but flawed from the get go
 
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It is probably a .442 or maybe a .450 calibre the .44 Russian will fit but is more powerful and I would not shoot it with that round I have one of each and am in the process of making ammo for them , be careful with what you shoot out of it,lots of guys on this site know a good deal about these rounds and may be able to help out, Dingus and Jethunter are 2 ,Smellie and Mooncoon may chime in also!
 
giveitago said:
Just make sure it actually shoots 44 russian and doesn't just chamber it.

I have one with a bore of .401 but chambers 44 russian. I'm still trying to figure that particular problem out.
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You basically have two choices: Sleeve the cylinder to take an appropriate sized cartridge, or make your own necked down .44 wildcat. That was the consensus in the past threads about these Bulldogs.

I have one as well. Not sure which route I'm going to go with it. Like yours, it sure ain't a 38-40... As you point out, the cylinder isn't even long enough for that brass let alone a complete round. I think I'm going to sleeve mine. A .40 bullet seated in a slightly necked and cut down .41 Mag case looks to be the way I'll go. Reminds me, I should get on that project again. Keep you posted with the results.
 
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I was told 44 Russian but I do not actually know.

I was told that 44 Special was too long, but 44 Russian fit.

Trust me there will be no shooting anything until it is proven safe and ammunition and loads are determined.
 
Webley made the original Bulldog revolvers. Or it could be one of the many US or belgian copies of the original Webley British Bulldog.

The Webley Bulldog was originally chambered in .44 Bulldog, which according to Cartridges of the World, uses a .440" diameter bullet and was basically a shorter version of the .442 RIC cartridge. The .442 RIC was also known as .44 Webley in the USA. Several of the US and Belgian manufacturers made bulldog-type revolvers chambered in 44 webley, and great variations in bore and chamber dimensions have been noted.

I don't know of any Bulldog style revolver that were originally chambered in 44 Russian. It's not impossible given the number of manufacturers making Bulldog type revolvers back then, but it would be improbable and impractical.

If you have pictures of the revolver and especially the inscriptions on the topstrap, then I can probably tell you if it is a real Webley Bulldog or a copy. Being a copy is not necessarily bad, some of the copies were very good quality as well. OTOH, some of them were cheap and nasty. Value depends on what you have. We need pictures or there's no way to know.
 
jethunter said:
Webley made the original Bulldog revolvers. Or it could be one of the many US or belgian copies of the original Webley British Bulldog.

The Webley Bulldog was originally chambered in .44 Bulldog, which according to Cartridges of the World, uses a .440" diameter bullet and was basically a shorter version of the .442 RIC cartridge. The .442 RIC was also known as .44 Webley in the USA. Several of the US and Belgian manufacturers made bulldog-type revolvers chambered in 44 webley, and great variations in bore and chamber dimensions have been noted.

I don't know of any Bulldog style revolver that were originally chambered in 44 Russian. It's not impossible given the number of manufacturers making Bulldog type revolvers back then, but it would be improbable and impractical.

If you have pictures of the revolver and especially the inscriptions on the topstrap, then I can probably tell you if it is a real Webley Bulldog or a copy. Being a copy is not necessarily bad, some of the copies were very good quality as well. OTOH, some of them were cheap and nasty. Value depends on what you have. We need pictures or there's no way to know.
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Working on it :)

The only person around it does not have internet, there are people closer but no idea if it will be this week or not for a month or two before I can get them.

Lots of information and making me feel good about this, it feels more and more like this is actually an antique and would be legal to retain :)

Thanks again everyone
 
Layman's "The British Bulldog Revolver" page 65 states"and in .44Smith & Wesson's cartridge(the 44 Russian)" for a Webley 1 1/2. They also made a.44 caliber which Layman assumes to be a .44/40
 
Max Power said:
You basically have two choices: Sleeve the cylinder to take an appropriate sized cartridge, or make your own necked down .44 wildcat. That was the consensus in the past threads about these Bulldogs.

I have one as well. Not sure which route I'm going to go with it. Like yours, it sure ain't a 38-40... As you point out, the cylinder isn't even long enough for that brass let alone a complete round. I think I'm going to sleeve mine. A .40 bullet seated in a slightly necked and cut down .41 Mag case looks to be the way I'll go. Reminds me, I should get on that project again. Keep you posted with the results.
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The one off wildcat is what I started pursuing, and then it got put on the shelf. This thread also started me thinking about it again. Keep me updated iff you get any farther on yours, I will do the same.
 
Pictures coming this weekend :)

I guess it was shown to an enthusiast and he said it was short so it was prohibited, that is all.

It measured the same as a 44 in the barrel, so that part is confirmed at least.

I hope it is old enough.

If it is an antique, do I need a letter from the RCMP stating that?

How can you get a letter if you want one to prove it as antique?

Thanks for all the info so far.
 
Fox said:
Pictures coming this weekend :)

I guess it was shown to an enthusiast and he said it was short so it was prohibited, that is all.

It measured the same as a 44 in the barrel, so that part is confirmed at least.

I hope it is old enough.

If it is an antique, do I need a letter from the RCMP stating that?

How can you get a letter if you want one to prove it as antique?

Thanks for all the info so far.
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Haha - I've encountered the "short barrel so no!!" thing before. Even had a guy with a pre-1893 proofed rimfire revolver refuse to talk to me because I was "Crazy" and "trying to break the law" when I told him he could have it deregistered from prohib. His loss I guess.

If it has proof of age AND isn't in a no-go caliber, then you're most of the way there. You can either ask the RCMP for a letter, or make your own based on evidence. There are of course trade offs.

RCMP letters hold some weight as official documents, though I have never met an officer who knew antiques existed at all, so they'll still ignore the letter and seek further proof. Additionally, if you supply your PAL, they will keep documentation of that antique attached to your name in a de-facto registry.

Personal Letters are less official so must be very very very very well backed with very reputable sources in order to at least have some credibility. The downside is that officers will definitely ignore the evidence, but the plus side is that the CFC doesn't get to input your antique into the database.

Side notes are that the CFC will not grant a letter for any gun that does not have 100% or more proof of age - this means if a proof's corroded from rust, or gun has markings that might have spanned the 1898 cutoff, they won't accept it.
 
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