Bullet hardness
- Thread starter Easyrider4590
- Start date
521 grain bullets, and 85 grains of Swiss powder. I don't have a chronograph...
I have slugged the barrel. I use a custom mold from Boomer. I have a sizing die that I made. Shooting paper patched bullets. I think I'll check sizing again, though. Thanks.
In my rifles I use 20:1 for Creedmoor style bullets and 16:1 for Money style noses. That is reasonably consistent with what I've seen at various matches in the states. However I'm reasonably sure that Dave Gullo uses 20:1 for everything and he seems to do well.
I would not expect that flyers are a bullet alloy problem. 16:1 works extremely well in my Shilohs.
I would expect that it's a bullet fit problem, or maybe a lot of powder that isn't so great. Oh, and do you anneal your cases? Neither of my Shiloh 45-90's shoot well until the cases have been annealed a couple of times. It makes a huge difference for my rifles.
Here are two of the loads I use in a 1:16 twist Shiloh. The first one was used to take second place in the first BPTRA Creedmoor match in Colorado ( and set the high target score at 1000 ).
Starline Brass
CCI BR2
78 gr Swiss 1.5
0.060" LDPE wad + newsprint wad
BACO 458535M1 bullet in 16:1 alloy. 0.001" neck tension, seated to just touch the rifling.
DGL alloy.
I also have a zero neck tension load that might be a touch better, but hasn't been tested past 300 yards
Starline brass
CCI BR2
80gr Swiss 1.5
0.060" LDPE wad + newsprint wad.
slip fit BACO 459540M3 bullet, DGL lube
seated to just touch the lands.
I also have a 1:18 twist Shiloh in .45-90 and I use the second load in it, but with the same weight of OE 1.5 powder. It shoots very well too.
I hope some of that is useful to you.
Chris.
I would not expect that flyers are a bullet alloy problem. 16:1 works extremely well in my Shilohs.
I would expect that it's a bullet fit problem, or maybe a lot of powder that isn't so great. Oh, and do you anneal your cases? Neither of my Shiloh 45-90's shoot well until the cases have been annealed a couple of times. It makes a huge difference for my rifles.
Here are two of the loads I use in a 1:16 twist Shiloh. The first one was used to take second place in the first BPTRA Creedmoor match in Colorado ( and set the high target score at 1000 ).
Starline Brass
CCI BR2
78 gr Swiss 1.5
0.060" LDPE wad + newsprint wad
BACO 458535M1 bullet in 16:1 alloy. 0.001" neck tension, seated to just touch the rifling.
DGL alloy.
I also have a zero neck tension load that might be a touch better, but hasn't been tested past 300 yards
Starline brass
CCI BR2
80gr Swiss 1.5
0.060" LDPE wad + newsprint wad.
slip fit BACO 459540M3 bullet, DGL lube
seated to just touch the lands.
I also have a 1:18 twist Shiloh in .45-90 and I use the second load in it, but with the same weight of OE 1.5 powder. It shoots very well too.
I hope some of that is useful to you.
Chris.
Glen,
I paper patch for several calibers and I must say, I have better luck with greasers. My .45 cal. paper patch mold is an older RCBS. My alloy is 1/20 tin to lead. My rifles are Pedersoli's 1-18 twist. If you want to try greasers, I have several .45 cal. molds, 2 acquired from Gunlaker!!!
Question for Gunlaker:
Would any BPCR benefit from frequent annealing or annealing more than once??
Oh, Glen one more thing to think about. I recently had a problem with a Shiloh in 45-70 that would shoot well and then start to throw flyers. There wasn't any clearance between the foreend and the action so I carefully sanded it until there was maybe 0.015"-0.020" clearance. That seems to have fixed the problem. I imagine if you trued the rifle with the foreend removed you could confirm or eliminate that idea pretty quickly.
Chris.
Chris.
I have tried greasers, but didn't have much luck. I feel my pp bullets work better in this rifle. It is (I think) built for paper patches. It has more freebore than some, allowing for shallower seating of the bullet, in order to get the bullet.almost touching the rifling. The rifle was built in the early '90s in New York, before the company moved to Big timber. Grease groove bullets have to have most of the grooves exposed, to get close enough to the rifling. Does any of that make sense?
Glen
Amateur question for you, Chris...
How does one size down .001", and still get paper patched bullets to seat without screwing up the patch?
Oh, I see you have a Farmingdale built rifle with freebore. I think there are some people on the Shiloh forum that would be able to give you advice to get it to shoot well. The key would be to make sure the bullet fits the freebore very well. Lots of people will tell you that a long freebore is a big problem, but not necessarily. I have a Sharps Borchardt with a freebore diameter just over 0.458". A .458" bullet sits only about 0.2" into the case. That gun did very well for me when I used to shoot it in the states, but only with a bullet sized to freebore diameter and seated out as far as possible.
Be careful shooting PP bullets with that freebore. You will almost certainly have to shoot groove diameter patched bullets. As big as you can fit them into that freebore.
As far as sizing them, I actually run all of my patched bullets through a Lee sizer before shooting them. Not really to size the bullet, but to iron out any tiny imperfections in the paper. I get way more consistent seating pressure when I push the rounds into the rifling. But that is with bore diameter PP bullets. I have never got around to patching to groove, but I'd like to one day.
I would definitely ask on the Shiloh forum though. I'm sure they can steer you right. There are a number of people on there who have written about the freebored Shilohs.
Chris.
Be careful shooting PP bullets with that freebore. You will almost certainly have to shoot groove diameter patched bullets. As big as you can fit them into that freebore.
As far as sizing them, I actually run all of my patched bullets through a Lee sizer before shooting them. Not really to size the bullet, but to iron out any tiny imperfections in the paper. I get way more consistent seating pressure when I push the rounds into the rifling. But that is with bore diameter PP bullets. I have never got around to patching to groove, but I'd like to one day.
I would definitely ask on the Shiloh forum though. I'm sure they can steer you right. There are a number of people on there who have written about the freebored Shilohs.
Chris.
Yes, now it makes perfect sense!!!
I size my PP bullets as well, for the same reason as Chris, only I use my 450 sizer. I rub my thumb and finger with BP lube and apply a small amount to the bullet and I seldom tear a patch.
Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
I have the exact same rifle. I think I am the third owner and the first two could never get it to shoot straight has less than 100 rounds through it. I took it to a friend that is a Shiloh guy and he cast the chamber and said it was made to shoot PP and will likely never shoot grease groove bullets well. I have yet to try it (I've only had it about 20 years so don't rush me
).Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
BTW, I am going g to be working up a load for my .500BPE and read that the best alloy is 20-1 lead-tin but did not say whether that was by weight or volume??.
After our discussion yesterday, I dug out the chamber/bore casting I made, and it is a you say...my patchd, sized bullets match the freebore size, and the groove diameter. There is indeed only about 0.2" of bullet bullet inside the case. When I bought the rifle, I had Leo Bumphry make me a gg and a pp mold. He told me then that based on the chamber casting, that this is a paper patch rifle. Leo knows his stuff!
Also, after our discussion yesterday, I dug out my copy of "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Matthew's. Paul answered my question about getting the bullet seated without buggering up the paper. It's pretty much the way I have been doing it. I am pretty interest in trying some more neck tension, tho. That just makes all kinds of sense to me...
Are you seeing leading in the start of the rifling and first few inches of the barrel? If so, it could mean the bullet is too soft. A too-soft bullet can "strip" as it enters the rifling and transitions into rotation. A harder bullet or a lighter load are the possible fixes for this problem.
Leading beyond the first few inches in the bore could be from an undersize bullet or a too-soft bullet. If the bore is not sealed by the bullet, the propellant gases can cut a channel in one side of the bullet, causing flyers and/or keyholing. Usually leading is visible win the bore if this is happening but not always.
Larger diameter bullet often solves these issues. The largest diameter cast bullet that still chambers cleanly is generally the most accurate and has the best chance of sealing the bore with heavier loads. The bullet should be at least .001" oversize, and .002" or .003" is even better. Caveat of course is that the bullet has to chamber properly.
Leading beyond the first few inches in the bore could be from an undersize bullet or a too-soft bullet. If the bore is not sealed by the bullet, the propellant gases can cut a channel in one side of the bullet, causing flyers and/or keyholing. Usually leading is visible win the bore if this is happening but not always.
Larger diameter bullet often solves these issues. The largest diameter cast bullet that still chambers cleanly is generally the most accurate and has the best chance of sealing the bore with heavier loads. The bullet should be at least .001" oversize, and .002" or .003" is even better. Caveat of course is that the bullet has to chamber properly.
Expressed as a percentage: 1 part tin is 5% 1lb of tin to 20 lbs of lead.
Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
Thank you, I suspected by weight but wanted to be sure.
