Bullet seater help?? 223 RCBS and load issues

DMS1

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I have a 2 die RCBS set that is only a year or so old. I am pretty new at this, have loaded up a few different bullets in the past month. I loaded some 75gr amax, and the seater left a little ring around the bullet, I read that there is a better seater to use for this length of bullet. I loaded every .5 grains from min to max in both Varget and IMR 4895, as that is what I have. Some of the IMR groups approached 1" but only at loads near 2600 fps. So I ordered some 75 hpbt and 60 gr Vmax, loaded 5 of each from min to max .5 gr increments with Varget last night. The hornady manual is very low wiht speeds and loads, I used the hodgon site for rec powder amounts. Both vmax and hpbt show compressed loads near max. Here is my issue:

As I loaded I set the seater for both bullets at 2.250" per hodgon specs (hornady also). As I reached compressed loads, my COL was getting longer, I adjusted the seater 2x more to make them go down. I noticed this morning that I have deformation near the bullet tip from the seater on the compressed loads. Instead of the curve of the bullet tip , I can feel a curved ditch all around the bullet from the seater. If I stayed in the hornady recommended powder loads, I would not be compressing these loads and have less deformation. Should I be changing my dies/seater? Should I be using less powder? I am still going to shoot them to test accuracy, but will the dents cause issues?

Also to note I am using nickel plated brass from winch ballistic factory ammo I have shot. They are not annealed, I seem to get jacket shaving on occasion with all the bullets I have tried, is there a neck tension issue?

The gun is a 20" 1/8" twist carbon wrapped ABS/Proof research barrel. Chamber is to SAMMI spec. I've tried dozens of factory loads. Winch 50gr ballistic tips are consistant at below 1". When I could get them, black hills 52gr match HP has shot 5 shot groups under 3/8" on several outings. I have some hornady 52gr bthp tried all loads in .5gr increments with varget and imr4895, only the imr had groups in the 1" range. Are these the wrong powders? On the web, I see lots of guys claiming great success, and I like the temp sensitive aspect of it, and I am developing loads in the winter that I would like to have work in the summer also. Any feedback appreciated.
 
Compressing the powder charge so much that you have to adjust the bullet seater is a sure sign that you have too much powder in the case.
Over compression can also cause the case to bulge(good luck getting them to chamber).
Reliability must come before accuracy or speed.
Now is a good time to get your bullet puller out.
OAL can be lengthened as long as you aren't jamming the bullets into the rifling and the cartriges will feed from the magazine.
Longer OAL may increase pressure and accuracy.
 
I have a 2 die RCBS set that is only a year or so old. I am pretty new at this, have loaded up a few different bullets in the past month. I loaded some 75gr amax, and the seater left a little ring around the bullet, I read that there is a better seater to use for this length of bullet. I loaded every .5 grains from min to max in both Varget and IMR 4895, as that is what I have. Some of the IMR groups approached 1" but only at loads near 2600 fps. So I ordered some 75 hpbt and 60 gr Vmax, loaded 5 of each from min to max .5 gr increments with Varget last night. The hornady manual is very low wiht speeds and loads, I used the hodgon site for rec powder amounts. Both vmax and hpbt show compressed loads near max. Here is my issue:

As I loaded I set the seater for both bullets at 2.250" per hodgon specs (hornady also). As I reached compressed loads, my COL was getting longer, I adjusted the seater 2x more to make them go down. I noticed this morning that I have deformation near the bullet tip from the seater on the compressed loads. Instead of the curve of the bullet tip , I can feel a curved ditch all around the bullet from the seater. If I stayed in the hornady recommended powder loads, I would not be compressing these loads and have less deformation. Should I be changing my dies/seater? Should I be using less powder? I am still going to shoot them to test accuracy, but will the dents cause issues?

Also to note I am using nickel plated brass from winch ballistic factory ammo I have shot. They are not annealed, I seem to get jacket shaving on occasion with all the bullets I have tried, is there a neck tension issue?

The gun is a 20" 1/8" twist carbon wrapped ABS/Proof research barrel. Chamber is to SAMMI spec. I've tried dozens of factory loads. Winch 50gr ballistic tips are consistant at below 1". When I could get them, black hills 52gr match HP has shot 5 shot groups under 3/8" on several outings. I have some hornady 52gr bthp tried all loads in .5gr increments with varget and imr4895, only the imr had groups in the 1" range. Are these the wrong powders? On the web, I see lots of guys claiming great success, and I like the temp sensitive aspect of it, and I am developing loads in the winter that I would like to have work in the summer also. Any feedback appreciated.

How much powder are you using?

I load the 75gr HPBT with just under 26gr of varget in my 223 and have no problems seating them to 2.25" oal.
 
I have compressed loads of Varget with long 75 and 80 gr bullets with no problems at all. Take a look at your charge weights and make sure you're in the safe range. I use a Harrel's powder measure with a 6 inch long drop tube so the powder settles in the case nicely. You may need to look at this with your powder measure.

Often the bullet seater stem doesn't mach the ogive esp with longer VLD's. You can easily modify your existing stem by chucking it in a drill and sanding it carefully. You can also make your own custom seater stem by waxing a bullet and putting a little epxoy putty in the stem and then squishing the whole works together in your press till the epoxy sets... works really well.

Step back from everything for a bit, get analytical and then plow forward. It's issues like this that make reloading a lot of fun. You'll get it figured out and you'll end up with great ammo and be a better reloader for it. A few years from now you'll run across a new guy with the same problem and help him out!!
 
Oh I forgot to add that if you're shaving brass you need to put a bit more of a chamfer on the inside of the case neck this will make the bullet seating a lot easier.
 
Well, I, like the OP have a RCBS .223 two die set. I frigged with it for a couple of hours trying to get it to decap and size the brass. Then seating was another exercise in futility. I just bit the bullet (so to speak) and bought a set of LEE collet dies and a .222 Rem (didn't have any .223 and the .222 is close enough to work fine) factory crimp die.

The new dies showed up yesterday. Within 1/2 an hour I had my 30-06 dies uninstalled and the .223/powder drop die/.222 crimp all installed and setup. Within another hour I had 50 of my brass done all turned out to proper lengths with accurate powder drops and a factory crimp.

So I for one am sticking with my LEE dies. Another bonus of the LEE dies is that the FL size dies have a pressure letoff hole in them in order to not allow shoulders to become dented by using too much lube.

Anyone want to buy a set of RCBS .223 dies? I almost used them once and the fellow I got them from used them a little as well.

All the best of luck with getting your dies setup for you. I am sure one of the RCBS gurus will pop in and let us both know what we were doing wrong with their dies.
 
Well, I, like the OP have a RCBS .223 two die set. I frigged with it for a couple of hours trying to get it to decap and size the brass. Then seating was another exercise in futility. I just bit the bullet (so to speak) and bought a set of LEE collet dies and a .222 Rem (didn't have any .223 and the .222 is close enough to work fine) factory crimp die.

The new dies showed up yesterday. Within 1/2 an hour I had my 30-06 dies uninstalled and the .223/powder drop die/.222 crimp all installed and setup. Within another hour I had 50 of my brass done all turned out to proper lengths with accurate powder drops and a factory crimp.

So I for one am sticking with my LEE dies. Another bonus of the LEE dies is that the FL size dies have a pressure letoff hole in them in order to not allow shoulders to become dented by using too much lube.

Anyone want to buy a set of RCBS .223 dies? I almost used them once and the fellow I got them from used them a little as well.

All the best of luck with getting your dies setup for you. I am sure one of the RCBS gurus will pop in and let us both know what we were doing wrong with their dies.

Doenst sound like a die problem to me. All I have is rcbs dies and never had any sort of problems. I also seat my bullets ~.010-.025 off the lands(except for short bullets). Even with 24gr varget and 77gr berger stuffed in the case it isnt compressed.
Also rcbs dies also have that air hole in them
 
Ditch the nickel brass as its garbage. It's hard to work with, it's hard on tools and its not going to be as accurate as brass.

Don't seat your 75 amazes to 2.25, extend your mag out to 2.50" and then run the long amax out. The ojive is long on the 75 amax and it needs the longer mag space to work.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I did load the amax to 2.390", they fed fine in my aics mags.

I used the following data from hodgon which shows 27gr max with vmax 60, and 25gr with hpbt 75


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Ditch the nickel brass as its garbage. It's hard to work with, it's hard on tools and its not going to be as accurate as brass.

Don't seat your 75 amazes to 2.25, extend your mag out to 2.50" and then run the long amax out. The ojive is long on the 75 amax and it needs the longer mag space to work.
 
Doenst sound like a die problem to me. All I have is rcbs dies and never had any sort of problems. I also seat my bullets ~.010-.025 off the lands(except for short bullets). Even with 24gr varget and 77gr berger stuffed in the case it isnt compressed.
Also rcbs dies also have that air hole in them

It would be nice if it wasn't the dies. All the proper instructions were followed off of the RCBS site. They setup a little differently than LEE dies that is why I got the RCBS instructions. In regards to the lube pressure hole, I have heard so many people complain about dented cases and I cannot see how they are doing it with dies with these holes. That is unless they are putting lube on with a putty knife. I have had lots of LEE lube on some cases and thought for sure they would dent after FL sizing. Never had one do it.

Like I said I would love to hear how exactly these dies setup since the instructions must be wrong. They are dies after all and are not rocket science or brain surgery to setup. If you have any tips or specifics on setup please share them. :)
 
For the sizing die
Raise the ram on the press(lower the handle)
Screw in the sizing die until it touches the ram
Lower the ram(raise the handle)
Screw in the die another 1/4 to 1/2 turn and lock it down.
 
For the sizing die
Raise the ram on the press(lower the handle)
Screw in the sizing die until it touches the ram
Lower the ram(raise the handle)
Screw in the die another 1/4 to 1/2 turn and lock it down.

That's exactly what my manual says and how I sized them, it's the seater that is the issue.

Is varget the end all be all for 223 or is there a "best" or "better" powder I should try?
 
Make or buy a drop tube and it may solve your problem, the drop tube aligns the powder and allows more powder to fit in the case. It will also lower your existing powder charge within the case and may solve the problem.

NOTE: A longer and thinner drop tube than the one used in the video will pack the powder in tighter and lower in the case.
(see Midway link below)


Charging Cases using a drop tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB37W5NbOQg

Forster Blue Ribbon Powder Funnel with Long Drop Tube
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/293879/forster-blue-ribbon-powder-funnel-with-long-drop-tube
 
That's exactly what my manual says and how I sized them, it's the seater that is the issue.

Is varget the end all be all for 223 or is there a "best" or "better" powder I should try?

For the seater
Put a case in the press and raise the ram
Screw in the die until it touches the shoulder of the case
lower the ram and unscrew the die 1/2 a turn and lock it down.
 
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