Bullseye vs unique in old guns

[cattabliss]

I've been looking up loads in particular for .455 mk ii cartridges to be shot in a Webley WG, I believe manufactured 1896.

If I want to use a 265 gn lead bullet, old Lyman (Ideal 40) data going back to the 50s suggest max charge of 3-3.2 gn Bullseye or 5-6 gn Unique, and the most modern data I can find (Alliant 2000 reloading manual) suggests max 3.8 gn Bullseye or 4.3 gn Unique for 12,600 psi (CUP).

Now, I don't have any Unique at the moment and most of what I can find online recommend Unique for its slower burn, with the suggestion that Unique is better for these old guns because it's a slower powder and its pressure spike is not as sharp.

My question is: if my aim is to shave 15% off that max charge to put the pressure well under 12,600 CUP, then is there any advantage of Unique over Bullseye as far as it relates to my appropriate stewardship of my old gun?

On the flip side, if it is indeed far better to use a slower powder, then there's available Blue Dot data (max 6.8 gn for 12,600 CUP, Alliant 2000) and that's even slower burning than Unique; on that logic, should I use Blue Dot > Unique > Bullseye?

In conclusion, in pistols (6 inch barrel by the way) is the idea that:

1) the warmer the charge, the more appropriate it is to use slow powder like Blue Dot, which will make a complete burn without a fast pressure spike

2) while for mouse fart antique loads, a fast powder like Bullseye is better for its complete burn

3) and a slow one may just leave a ton of unburnt powder without getting my bullet to intended velocities?

 

[Webley No.5]

Well I can say I reloaded with blue dot to good success. If I recall I was on the light side of the available 455 data for blue dot. When I shot it you got a lot of unburnt/ not completely burnt powder out the barrel. Unfortunately, I can’t give you a definitive answer about what’s best. I can tell that seating depth makes a big difference in this short cartridge. Question to think about what breaks steel higher short impulses or lower longer impulses? The answer being either can break steel. My thoughts were that slower burn and longer impulse would be better but either can damage 100+ year old steel. Best thing you can do is light loads. If your revolver shoots solid base bullets well, put 185gr cast bullets in it and load them to the original 265gr velocity and enjoy the plinking.

 

[cattabliss]

Well I can say I reloaded with blue dot to good success. If I recall I was on the light side of the available 455 data for blue dot. When I shot it you got a lot of unburnt/ not completely burnt powder out the barrel. Unfortunately, I can’t give you a definitive answer about what’s best. I can tell that seating depth makes a big difference in this short cartridge. Question to think about what breaks steel higher short impulses or lower longer impulses? The answer being either can break steel. My thoughts were that slower burn and longer impulse would be better but either can damage 100+ year old steel. Best thing you can do is light loads. If your revolver shoots solid base bullets well, put 185gr cast bullets in it and load them to the original 265gr velocity and enjoy the plinking.

Thank you for your insights, that's +1 vote to Blue Dot for my notes.

In your view, is the assumption correct that unburnt powder ought to mean even lower pressures than the load data would suggest? Or just that the data publishers had a dirty gun too after shooting?

Thank you also for your note regarding hollow vs solid base. I plan to use hollow ... I plan to order my bullets from Jet Bullets and they only have .454 solid base to 250 gn. I am not sure about experimenting with .45 colt/ACP bullets which I can get in the 185 range. I can't cast my own unfortunately.

 

[vagrantviking]

My thinking is that the slower powder will be easier on old guns and I've heard that unique has a pressure curve somewhat similar to black powder. I don't have hard clear evidence for this either though.
Black powder is a good option but unless the gun is particularly rickety I usually figure out a smokeless load that I'm comfortable with and that's generally using unique. There's usually some amount of incomplete combustion but so what? As long as it isn't too inconsistent there's no harm in that.
I do have some bluedot so should give that a try too.

Good shooting with your new Webley. You're definitely on the right track.

 

[oneadam12]

I have used both Bullseye and Unique for this cartridge.

There is no advantage in terms of cleanliness to the Bullseye at these charge weights in the 455 cases. The recoil impulse of the two is very different, with Bullseye being sharper. The disadvantage of Bullseye and faster powders generally is that the low charge weight increases the potential for error.

I prefer Unique but do have Bullseye on my shelf for other large bore pistol calibers. 455 was loaded with cordite later in life but if I ever get the chance I will be switching to a higher volume black powder substitute like Tin Star.

 

[vagrantviking]

I prefer Unique but do have Bullseye on my shelf for other large bore pistol calibers. 455 was loaded with cordite later in life but if I ever get the chance I will be switching to a higher volume black powder substitute like Tin Star.

I've never used tin star. Is it like Trailboss in being a very fast powder that has been physically designed to be very bulky for ease in spotting double charges? Trailboss is quite similar to bullseye or titegroup.

Because of the way it's been advertised I think many people misunderstand it's burn characteristics.

Black powder substitutes are things like 777, pyrodex, or cleanshot

 

[Webley No.5]

For your bullet order, I ordered a bunch from jet bullets tried a bunch of his bullets. If you’ve never reloaded webley before I suggest starting with the original bullet shape the 265gr RN HB. Like I said the small case is can change a lot from bullet seating depth. This is also true when changing bullet shape. The hollow bass bullet allows you to complete cover the lube grooves but still allows for a larger effective case volume because the base is hollow. Pretty much everyone who loads webley uses these bullets so there is data out there. Other bullet shapes and weights you will be on your own and need to do load development.

You do note that you have a WG, I’ve heard of people using 45 schofield brass in WGs as they have a longer cylinder and chamber. If you go that way I had a load for jet bullets 250gr WC HB 0.454in bullet at about webley velocity that was very nice shooting out of my No5 in schofield brass with unique. Also with schofield brass you can cut it to 455mkI brass length and load a true BP load if you wanted and the WGs chamber is not long enough. I did try the above bullet in a 455mkii case but the logistics weren’t there, it has to be seated too far into the case to cover the grooves.

FYI if you don’t have a chronograph I highly suggest getting one. And developing a load for your specific gun

 

[cattabliss]

My thinking is that the slower powder will be easier on old guns and I've heard that unique has a pressure curve somewhat similar to black powder. I don't have hard clear evidence for this either though.
Black powder is a good option but unless the gun is particularly rickety I usually figure out a smokeless load that I'm comfortable with and that's generally using unique. There's usually some amount of incomplete combustion but so what? As long as it isn't too inconsistent there's no harm in that.
I do have some bluedot so should give that a try too.

Good shooting with your new Webley. You're definitely on the right track.

From what I can find online, it seems like 90% of Webley owner-reloaders prefer Unique. I guess one of my goals is trying to determine if that is a conscious decision by the bulk of Webley owner-reloaders, or perhaps simply a function of Unique being such an old, available powder.

Which happens to be out of stock everywhere currently, of course!

 

[cattabliss]

I have used both Bullseye and Unique for this cartridge.

There is no advantage in terms of cleanliness to the Bullseye at these charge weights in the 455 cases. The recoil impulse of the two is very different, with Bullseye being sharper. The disadvantage of Bullseye and faster powders generally is that the low charge weight increases the potential for error.

I prefer Unique but do have Bullseye on my shelf for other large bore pistol calibers. 455 was loaded with cordite later in life but if I ever get the chance I will be switching to a higher volume black powder substitute like Tin Star.

I have heard of Trail Boss but this is only I think the second time I've heard Tin Star in relation to developing light loads. Will have to look more into it. If you ever switch to Tin Star I'm hopeful you will report on CGN somewhere with your observations!

 

[cattabliss]

For your bullet order, I ordered a bunch from jet bullets tried a bunch of his bullets. If you’ve never reloaded webley before I suggest starting with the original bullet shape the 265gr RN HB. Like I said the small case is can change a lot from bullet seating depth. This is also true when changing bullet shape. The hollow bass bullet allows you to complete cover the lube grooves but still allows for a larger effective case volume because the base is hollow. Pretty much everyone who loads webley uses these bullets so there is data out there. Other bullet shapes and weights you will be on your own and need to do load development.

You do note that you have a WG, I’ve heard of people using 45 schofield brass in WGs as they have a longer cylinder and chamber. If you go that way I had a load for jet bullets 250gr WC HB 0.454in bullet at about webley velocity that was very nice shooting out of my No5 in schofield brass with unique. Also with schofield brass you can cut it to 455mkI brass length and load a true BP load if you wanted and the WGs chamber is not long enough. I did try the above bullet in a 455mkii case but the logistics weren’t there, it has to be seated too far into the case to cover the grooves.

FYI if you don’t have a chronograph I highly suggest getting one. And developing a load for your specific gun

Thank you again for your sage advice. I will do some research on 45 Schofield data and definitely invest in a chronograph next. I live in an urban area and frequent an indoor range so I don't have a chrono yet as I wasn't sure if I could stand back far enough from it to properly use the chrono, but a trip to the woods with a chrono and a box of different loads for experimenting is likely on my schedule soon!

 

[Webley No.5]

Well it’s really more for rifle use but I have strapped a magnetospeed chrono to a revolver before hahaha. Actually I bought the magnetospeed after I accidentally shot my old RCBS chrono with a webley that was having issues reading….. I wouldn’t recommend it if you primarily shoot pistols but it worked on my No5 and requires no more space than having a bayonet attached.
I liked schofield brass loads because I have a Lyman manual that actually has pressure data for 45 schofield (also why I used unique it was one of the options in the manual and blue dot wasn’t). I don’t recommend a full 45 schofield load but the starting load listed in my manual was under the pressure of 455 webley service ammo from what I could find.
In regards to powder, I’ve heard a lot powders claimed as having burn rates close to BP. Go look into smokeless loads for old BP rifle cartridges like 577-450MH there is claims of a lot slower burning smokeless powders replicating BP. The issue with smokeless powder is it essentially has an exponential burn rate compared to pressure whereas BP tends to be more linear. So at low pressure a lot powders can produce a pressure curve similar to BP. All that said, there was SAAs in 45 colt that were broken by BP ammunition of the time. In my opinion it doesn’t really matter what powder you choose (within reason) just stay on the light sides loads. A starting load with unique is probably safer then a max load with blue dot. As to which one is safest at the max load thats a debate that’s been on for a long time and I’ve seen little evidence either side mostly speculation and reason debates.

 

[Andy]

....Unique is better for these old guns because it's a slower powder and its pressure spike is not as sharp.....

These two powders are so close in Burn Rate that if you overlaid a pressure graph of Unique over one of Bullseye, they'd practically overlap, and any difference would be well within the range of pressure testing equipment error and shot to shot deviations. Theoretically the pressure peak of Unique might be 10 ms later and the curve ever so slightly wider.

What you get is a bit more of a safety margin with the slightly slower powder as an additional grain of powder might (for example) raise the pressure 3.5K psi instead of 4.0K psi.

 

[LawrenceN]

Have you got any load data for Hodgdon HP-38? I reload for my .44 Russian S&W top-break with that powder. The data I have lists Titegroup, Clays, and Trail Boss for my 200 gr. lead bullets and adds Universal with my 240 gr. I load mid point on the 200 gr. as plinkers and full load for my 240 gr. hollow points as I intend that load as bush/home defense load.

 

[cattabliss]

Have you got any load data for Hodgdon HP-38? I reload for my .44 Russian S&W top-break with that powder. The data I have lists Titegroup, Clays, and Trail Boss for my 200 gr. lead bullets and adds Universal with my 240 gr. I load mid point on the 200 gr. as plinkers and full load for my 240 gr. hollow points as I intend that load as bush/home defense load.

Lyman 50th suggests 3.9 gn to 4.4 gn (9k to 10.8k PSI) for Hp38 in 200 gn 44 Russian and 3.6 gn to 4.1 gn (8k to 11k PSI) for 240 gn bullets, but also cautions not to use in old top breaks.

 

[cattabliss]

Well it’s really more for rifle use but I have strapped a magnetospeed chrono to a revolver before hahaha. Actually I bought the magnetospeed after I accidentally shot my old RCBS chrono with a webley that was having issues reading….. I wouldn’t recommend it if you primarily shoot pistols but it worked on my No5 and requires no more space than having a bayonet attached.
I liked schofield brass loads because I have a Lyman manual that actually has pressure data for 45 schofield (also why I used unique it was one of the options in the manual and blue dot wasn’t). I don’t recommend a full 45 schofield load but the starting load listed in my manual was under the pressure of 455 webley service ammo from what I could find.
In regards to powder, I’ve heard a lot powders claimed as having burn rates close to BP. Go look into smokeless loads for old BP rifle cartridges like 577-450MH there is claims of a lot slower burning smokeless powders replicating BP. The issue with smokeless powder is it essentially has an exponential burn rate compared to pressure whereas BP tends to be more linear. So at low pressure a lot powders can produce a pressure curve similar to BP. All that said, there was SAAs in 45 colt that were broken by BP ammunition of the time. In my opinion it doesn’t really matter what powder you choose (within reason) just stay on the light sides loads. A starting load with unique is probably safer then a max load with blue dot. As to which one is safest at the max load thats a debate that’s been on for a long time and I’ve seen little evidence either side mostly speculation and reason debates.

Hmm I don't think I've seen a magnetospeed Chrono before, looks really neat. Just attaches to the barrel? But yes I load and shoot mainly for pistol.

I'm actually eyeing see mk I cases since Ken Waters pet loads uses mk I cases for its data and I suppose the extra case length may help give me a greater safety margin much like a hollow base does, which I also plan to use.

Definitely light loads no matter what, aim would be for longevity/endurance rather than to test the limits of my WG!

 

[cattabliss]

These two powders are so close in Burn Rate that if you overlaid a pressure graph of Unique over one of Bullseye, they'd practically overlap, and any difference would be well within the range of pressure testing equipment error and shot to shot deviations. Theoretically the pressure peak of Unique might be 10 ms later and the curve ever so slightly wider.

What you get is a bit more of a safety margin with the slightly slower powder as an additional grain of powder might (for example) raise the pressure 3.5K psi instead of 4.0K psi.

Thank you for your insight. Those two powders have such similar charge weights in load data that I suspected Unique really isn't that much slower at all. I was kind of hoping someone would also raise this conclusion and here it is.

 

[jethunter]

You can create an over pressure load with either powder.

 

[cattabliss]

You can create an over pressure load with either powder.

I definitely understand that. As the gentleman I am planning on purchasing bullets for from this, would you recommend staying away from both powders and getting some black powder instead?

I load for 38, 357 and 9 mm for my modern guns so I've definitely drilled into myself that I'm one distraction/mistake away from an injury when reloading.

 

[jethunter]

I definitely understand that. As the gentleman I am planning on purchasing bullets for from this, would you recommend staying away from both powders and getting some black powder instead?

I load for 38, 357 and 9 mm for my modern guns so I've definitely drilled into myself that I'm one distraction/mistake away from an injury when reloading.

I have loaded both powders in 455 mkii and am comfortable withe either, though I prefer unique.

I batch load powder charges and when the tray is full I visually check the entire batch, it's easy to see a double charge at that point. You should do what you're comfortable with.

 

[cattabliss]

I have loaded both powders in 455 mkii and am comfortable withe either, though I prefer unique.

I batch load powder charges and when the tray is full I visually check the entire batch, it's easy to see a double charge at that point. You should do what you're comfortable with.

Thank you for your insights as well! And also for supplying us Canadians with cast bullets for these less common ammo!