Buying My First SxS - New or Used?

chele said:
I was reading the sticky thread of the SxS and O/H shotguns and WOW, what a beautiful shotguns some people on this forum have!

For some reason, I have always like the side-by-side shotguns over any other type of shotgun. Perhaps, it is how simple they are or the great details of the high end guns.

I have been searching for a new SxS shotgun in the $500 price range, being the Stroegers the only shotgun I can afford in this price range. However, after reading the SxS thread some members have gotten great SxS shotguns for less than $500.

My question for you SxS owners ... Should I buy a used SxS as my first hunting shotgun? or used SxS shotguns should be limited for range shooting? What are your experience with the newer Stroeger SxS guns? do you like them or do you regret not buying a used shotgun instead?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't touch any new $500 SxS. There are way...WAY better guns on the used market for $500 than the new budget offerings. Take your time and ask lots of questions. You'll eventually find a nice double that you'll be proud to own.

Good luck in the search.
 
One more question ... If I get an older SxS which cannot handle steel shots, would it make sense to use led shots in the occasional range shooting and use led-free shots for hunting? In theory led-free shots shouldn't damage an older gun ... Is that right?
 
Last edited:
Lead free shot like bismuth should be fine, assuming the loads are appropriate for the gun. You need lead free for migratory birds, otherwise use lead for hunting and range shooting.
You might consider something like a Stevens 311. Not exactly sophisticated, but solid and serviceable. $300 should be plenty.
 
chele said:
One more question ... If I get an older SxS which cannot handle steel shots, would it make sense to use led shots in the occasional range shooting and use led-free shots for hunting? In theory led-free shots shouldn't damage an older gun ... Is that right?
Click to expand...

Tungsten Polymer or Bismuth are fine to use. Tungsten-Iron is not.
 
Depending on how old a gun you get, beside not using steel in it, you may need to consider the pressure levels generated in the barrels by the various loads you might want to use and what level is appropriate for the gun you have. That probably all sounds like a foreign language so if you want or need more information on older barrels and stocks and the impact pressure levels can have on them, just ask and plenty here will help.
 
chele said:
One more question ... If I get an older SxS which cannot handle steel shots, would it make sense to use led shots in the occasional range shooting and use led-free shots for hunting? In theory led-free shots shouldn't damage an older gun ... Is that right?
Click to expand...

My SxS guns range in production dates from mid 1880's to mid 1930's. So even the newest is old. All of them were designed to shoot lead. So in every circumstance possible, I shoot lead with no worries, regardless of the chokes in any particular gun.

When shooting lead, I only worry about pressure levels and load amounts.

I am concerned about pressure levels because of what the pressure level the gun's barrels was designed to handle (I don't want the barrels to blow up in my hands). I resolve this by learning what the gun was rated for at time of production (or proofed if it is from Europe or England) and by measuring the barrels wall thickness today to see how much, if any, barrel wall material has been removed by honing over the last 100 or so years. Obviously pitting is a problem as well.


I'm concerned about load because of the recoil impact of the action on old and possible deteriorated wood in the stock. Over time the wood shrinks away from the metal of the receiver and weakens. When it does the recoil impact of firing the gun becomes much more severe. It is probably the main cause of cracked, chipped and broken stocks in old SxS.

When I am hunting and required to use non toxic shot (despite no evidence that lead pellets affect any wildlife) that is just a third issue to deal with. As someone else noted, not all non tox is safe for old barrels. Obviously steel isn't but some others aren't either. I have used bismuth and tungsten matrix happily (except for cost). To be used safely in older barrels the non tox pellet must have a hardness level similar to lead.

When I say "concerned" what I mean is that I had to become educated about these issues to know both what the potential problems were and what the solutions are. Now that I know, my only "concern" is that someone doesn't slide a modern shell in one of my guns that I don't know about. Of course, the chances of that are pretty slim.....not a lot of other people get to shoot my guns.

Those are the three issues. Each of them have their own dates as to when I need to be concerned about them. Assuming good condition, most barrels made from the 1930's on can manage modern pressure levels. The wood issue I look for on any pre WWII gun and the likelihood of it being a problem increases with age. Any modern gun can handle steel, not sure of the dates but I think from around mid 1980's onward.
 
To shoot modern steel loads, you need to make sure the gun is rated for them. The European standard proof was upped a few yrs ago to allow for the high speed steel rounds, which operate at higher levels than any of the lead rounds. They are now apparently supposed to put BAR pressure ratings of the round on an insert, in the box, over there. The new standard is 1370BAR on the proof test. Considering that a hot round in the days of lead was 1330fps, that gives you a picture of what pressures are now with the 1550's and 1625's and 1700fps rounds.

INFORMATION SHEET
CIP REGULATIONS ON
STEEL SHOT AMMUNITION AND SHOTGUN PROOF
This paper summarises the current CIP (Permanent International Commission for the
Proof of Small Arms) regulations relating to steel shot cartridges for 12 and 20 bore
shotguns, and the proof requirements of guns used to fire steel shot ammunition. The
information is based on recent CIP Decisions taken in plenary meetings, with some
explanatory material added.
1. Steel shot cartridges.
1.1 The steel shot must have the following hardness values (Vickers):
Surface VH1 < 110
Core VH1 < 100
1.2 The steel shot load must be provided with a sufficiently strong and direct
acting protective device designed to prevent any abrasion by the shot on the
internal barrel wall
(i.e. plastic or other wad). This protection must be effective for firing at temperatures from - 20ºC to + 50ºC.
1.3 The marking “Steel Shot” must be printed on the cartridge tube. The same
inscription in one of the languages used by the CIP member states may also
be added.
2. Standard 12 bore steel shot cartridges.
These cartridges, if they are to be fired from standard proof shotguns
(ie those proved to 960 bar (transducer) or, previously, 850 bar (crusher))
, or magnum proof shotguns (ie those proved to 1370 bar (transducer) or, previously, 1200 bar (crusher))must not exceed the maximum admissible service pressure of 74 MPa
(new units “megapascals”, in place of the old 740 bar) specified by the CIP and measured by
means of a piezo-electric transducer.

2
2.1 The steel shot diameter must be ≤ 3.25 mm
(i.e. equal to or less than 3.25 mm – which is smaller than English no
.
3).
2.2 The mean velocity, measured at a point 2.50 m from the muzzle, must be 400 m/s (around 1,300 ft/s)This velocity is to be measured using a
cylindrical barrel and the mean value of a series of 10 shots.
2.3 The momentum must be: Mo = mV 12 Ns. (Momentum = mass of shot x its velocity, measured in Newton-seconds (!). It is calculated by multiplying the weight of shot load (in kgs) by the velocity (at 2.5 m) in m/s. So, a 30 g load at 385 m/s has a momentum of 0.030 x 385 = 11.55 Ns i.e. just under the 12.0 Ns limit).
See Endnote.
2.4 Markings to be borne on the basic packaging, in addition to the normal safety

warnings:
- “Beware of ricochets: avoid firing at rigid and hard surfaces”
- “Steel Shot cartridges”. The same inscription in one of the languages used
by the CIP member states may also be added.
3. High Performance 12 bore steel shot cartridges.
These cartridges, whether 12/70 or 12/73 and longer
(i.e. 12 bore cartridges for 70 mm (2 3/4in) or 73 mm chambers), can only
be fired from 12 bore guns specially designed to fire steel shot ammunition and bearing the Steel Shot proof mark (this includes the words “Steel Shot” and a Fleur de Lys ). They must all
observe the maximum admissible service pressure of 105 MPa (1,050 bar (transducer)).
3.1 The mean velocity measured at a point 2.50 m from the muzzle, for any 12/70 or longer cartridge, must be ≤430 m/s
(around 1,400 ft/s). This velocity is to be measured using a cylindrical barreland the mean value of a series of 10 shots.
3.2 For 12/70 cartridges the momentum must be: Mo = mV < 13.5 Ns (see para 2.3 above).
For 12/73 or longer cartridges, the momentum must be: Mo = mV < 15 Ns
(see para 2.3 above)
. See Endnote.
3.3 Where the steel shot diameter exceeds 4 mm (“BB” or larger), only weapons having barrels with a choke less than 0.5 mm (equivalent to halfchoke) are to be used.

There is more to this if you want to read about 20ga and etc;

http://www.chircuprodimpex.ro/produ.../cip-regulations-on-steel-shot-ammunition.pdf
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom