C96 Red Nines - Prussian Eagle + Military Acceptance Stamps

sledge

sledge

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Been very cautious about buying one. Anyone spent a lot more time than myself trying to figure out why many 9mm "red nines" for sale don't have the Prussian Eagle or any military acceptance marks?

Is it possible these stamps were omitted during production? Did they wear off? (I am skeptical of either of these theories). Or are all these clean marked red nines just normal 7.63s that have been re-barreled to 9mm and then later passed (thru the hands of many owners) off as red nines? Not poking any fingers at anyone, as some could have bought it really thinking they were legit, and some don't care either way.

There are lots of legitimate/honest reasons you would re-bore one of these and just leave it like that. 9mm is more common. Since you cannot change the barrel on a c96 if it's shot out this is one option to make it a shooter. My understanding is no modification is necessary on the action, thus this is an easy thing to do. But somewhere down the line you get a pair of wood grips and a 500m sight (and where do these come from ???). Now you have what appears to be a red nine. The fact there are so many new serial number runs makes it even harder to distinguish if it's valid.

But the markings, the lack of them, really make me wonder.


Thoughts?
 
The C-96 was one of the earliest semi-auto pistols and a most interesting and significant specimen of such. That said, however, it was NEVER adopted as the military-standard pistol by ANY military, although it was USED by more militaries than any other pistol in history. By contrast, the Luger became the STANDARD of more militaries than any other pistol, even though deliveries often were stopped in their tracks by political events. For example, the Luger was the OFFICIAL pistol of the Russian Army. Ever see one? I think there are THREE known to exist outside of Russia, but it was the official pistol; deliveries simply were stopped by a political inconvenience called the First World War.

So any Mauser is a CIVILIAN weapon, simply purchased for military use, exactly like so many others. For example, I have a 1913 Sauer & Sohn which I can PROVE saw military service in the Great War. It has no official markings. Neither will the vast majority of military C-96s. The "Red Nine" pistols were expressly factory-marked in that fashion FOR GERMAN MILITARY SERVICE.

"Rebarreling" a C-96 is an impossibility, given that the gun has no barrel. The entire upper receiver is made as a single piece with the Barrel as a part of it.

Hope this is some help.
 
I used the wrong word. Not re-barreled, but bored out to 9mm. Because as you mentioned Smellie the barrel is part of the receiver and if you have a shot out 7.63 "barrel" you can only enlarge the bore.

By "expressly factory marked" does that mean all red nines should have military markings?
 
Not to change the subject, but is there a takedown or field stripping guide available anywhere for the C96's? Can't seem to find one anywhere.
 
I wouldn't post a specific pistol that was not mine, but I don't think it matters. I have been "mildly" looking for a red nine for about a year and seen a few here and on other sites for sale from time to time. None ever had the Prussian Eagle on the mag well (other locations with that marking don't seem to be reported anywhere online), none had German Military acceptance marks - just the standard Mauser/factory symbols you would see with commercial C96s. And they were not priced much more than a 7.63 broomhandle...so it's not like they really tried to sell them as 100% legit red nines. It's obviously a bit of buyer beware with anything German.
 
The Mauser C-96s with the red number 9 in the grip were ordered by the Germans during WW1, due to the shortage of weapons. The 9 was to different them from the regular C-96s in 7.63mm

Both the British and France ordered American and Spanish pistols and revolvers for the same reason during WW1.

The Spanish clones of the Broomhandle are very interesting as some of them are only C-96s, skin deep.

The C-96 has been rebarrelled and relined at different time. Rebarreling means cutting of the barrel past the frame and then it gets complicated with threaded or pinned barrels.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/gunsmithing-sponsored-by-4-d-reamer-rentals/c96-bbl/

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=548623

etc.
 
Several field stripping videos on Youtube.
Also on Gunbroker.com there was,or maybe still is an ebook you can download (after payment) with animations and field stripping of the C96.
I bought one last month,very educational.
 
The "Red Nine" Mausers were contracted for as a result of slower-than-needed production of Lugers at DWM and Erfurt, both of which also were working flat-out on machine-guns, rifles and pistols at the same time. The Army ordered 150,000 Mausers, of which between 136,000 and 137,000 were delivered before the Armistice.

Any wartime "Red Nine" should have the New Safety and a hammer serialled to the gun (last 3 figures) and "NS" intertwined on the rear face of the hammer. The New Safety came in at serial number 280,000. Wartime production ended about serial 430,000, but that block includes some interesting 8.15mm pistol, a few civilian guns, whatever got made out of the Austro-Hungarian 50,000-gun contract AND the Red Nines. There WAS a special ownership stamp for Army pistols, consisting of a pentagonal Crown marking with a Cross on top and the letter S underneath.

The famous RED NINE itself was branded into the grips and painted-in with red paint. This job supposedly was done by unit armourers, and "Red Nines" are known which have NO "9", red or otherwise, marked on them. They will, however, fall into that 280,000 - 430,000 serial number group.

A considerable number were shortened to a 99mm barrel length (thus becoming Prohibs in this wonderful Free Country of ours) and kept in Service by the Weimar Army, the Reichswehr. Normally, these will be found marked "1920", as will Lugers and 98 Mauser rifles kept by the Reichswehr. In this manner, they are similar to the post-War "Bolo" model wut with the normal "bag" grips rather than the distinctive "Bolo" flat grips.

Now you know exactly what to look for.

Hope this helps.
 
Ok, going off topic here lads. Asked about the markings.

Thanks Smellie for confirming what I suspected - that there was a crown/S mark for army issued C96s. Do you think this is a MUST though? Is it possible, for reasons of a "rush job" that they would not stamp some?
 
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I would think that there could have been a huge rush after August of 1918. After Cambrai, the Germans were disorganised, retreating AND losing, heavily infected with the Spanish Flu. They were losing the war at last, after 4 years of advance and deadlock, and they knew it.

In the really big offensives of 1918, everything got mixed-up, even our own Armies. I knew a fellow who was with the CMMG, spent a whole afternoon zipping about in a car behind German lines, pooping off his Vickers and chucking Mills bombs at anything that moved. Talk about mass confusion! To this day, our own Army isn't certain exactly where he was, but the Front got a whole lot softer right about then.

It is entirely possible, in a mad rush like that, that a few pistols might have missed having their Crown-S mark applied. Just as likely that it could have been a civilian purchase. Not much difference; they all ended up at the Front one way or another. Not sure about Fritz's Army but, in ours, an Officer supplied his own pistol and was given a cash allowance to do this with. He had the choice of buying one at a "decent" shop (Holland and Holland, Rigby, Boss or another "reputable" maker), or just buying one from Army inventory. In either case, it was his personal property and, if he survived, he took it home with him.

Not much help, I'm afraid, but it IS a century, very nearly. Far too many questions were not asked when the boys were still with us; they will never be answered now.
 
I haven't found any reference book which states clearly whether or not all were stamped with the mark or not. I just sold one which did not have the Prussian Eagle on the front of the mag housing, where one usually finds it, but did have it on the bottom of the trigger guard. That was also a "double date" Weimar period owned one, so clearly was in service. I have owned one several years ago with stock holster and leather with capture papers, which did not have the ownership mark/Prussian Eagle, so I think that perhaps some private purchase may have been going on. Essentially, if a pistol is in the correct serial number range for the Red 9's and has no clear evidence of being bored out, it's impossible to tell one way or the other. A 9mm with a serial number in the 200,000 - 300,000 range, now, that would be incorrect.

Ed
 
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