Can I put a SAO Trigger on my SP-01 and still be legal in ESP in IDPA?

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Hoag

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I am considering putting a Single Action Only trigger on my CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow. The IDPA Rules on mods allowable to the ESP Division are not very ambiguous for the most part, but on this one topic, they are not totally clear. On pages 28 and 29 of the IDPA 2017 Rule Book, it states the following regarding allowable mods in ESP (in part):

8.2.2.1 Start Condition:
A. Single action only firearms will start with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged.
B. Selective DA/SA firearms may start cocked and locked or de-cocked, at the shooter’s discretion. ...

8.2.2.2 ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):...
E. Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. ...
K. Aftermarket triggers and trigger work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the stock trigger position.
L. Externally visible trigger over travel stops.
M. Hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger pull. ...
Click to expand...

Although this change is not specifically mentioned, it could easily be interpreted as falling into the modifications identified in Rule 8.2.2.2 sub paras E, K, or M.

Does anybody know if this mod would still leave me with an ESP compliant SP-01?
 
RePete said:
SAO is ESP only.

SSP is DA first pull.
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Thanks @RePete. I know that if a gun was SAO from the factory then it would be ESP. The Sig P226 SAO comes to mind. I guess my question was could I modify a gun which came from the factory as a DA/SA (as my SP-01 did) to SAO and still comply with IDPA Rules for ESP or would that change disqualify the gun?

Thanks.
 
RePete said:
No, you will ESP.
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Forgive me, but I am confused by your answer. I am asking if I will still be ESP. (I currently shoot ESP with my SP-01 starting "Cocked & Locked.)

Are you saying No I will not be ESP? Or are you saying that Yes I will be ESP?
 
You don't need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol, just use the pinch method on the hammer.

SP01 you fire it DA for the first shot and SA for the subsequent shots.
 
RePete said:
You don't need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol, just use the pinch method on the hammer.

SP01 you fire it DA for the first shot and SA for the subsequent shots.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. You are depressing the trigger and manually walking the hammer down which by design is not DA/SA. Would the RO be ok with that method on a SIG or HK?
 
RePete said:
Why would you want too if the pistol has a decocker, that's just stupidity in the highest.
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Why would it be deemed safe to manually lower the hammer while depressing the trigger? The question isn't whether or not you would want to lower ths hammer on a sig by hand. The question is whether or not it would be acceptable?
 
Last edited:
Yes.

In the absence of a decocker, if the start condition mandates a DA start (SSP) for a DA/SA pistol, then the hammer must be lowered manually. Either pinch and pull or thumb roll method.
 
Kidd X said:
Exactly my point. You are depressing the trigger and manually walking the hammer down which by design is not DA/SA. Would the RO be ok with that method on a SIG or HK?
Click to expand...

Da/sa has nothing to do with the presence of a decocker. It simply tells you the gun has a single action trigger when cocked and also has a double action trigger when uncocked.

Decocker is simply a feature on many da/sa guns to make decocking easier - a competent user should be able to do it without a decocker too, in case something was to malfunction.
 
Here's the text from the IDPA rulebook for SSP start condition:

8.2.1.1 Start Condition
A. Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down.
B. Firearms with a hammer de-cocking lever or button will have their hammer de-cocked using the lever or button.
C. If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the hammer will belowered to the lowest position possible.
D. Manual safeties may be engaged at the shooter’s discretion.
 
Kidd X said:
Can someone explain how an SP01 is considered a DA/SA gun when it has no proper decocker??
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Kidd X For you that is about the silliest post I have seen you write and you have written a few. I will chock it up to you just trolling, yet again or do you really not know the differences in how guns are classified or referred to as being. ie SA, DA/SA, DAO by shooting organizations and the ATF for that matter. I guess you can't be the real TDC because I am certain he knew.

For the OP I would strongly suggest you use the thumb roll method to lower the hammer on your SP-01 if you choose to start DA in ESP. I should say most would start cocked and locked. I have seen two AD's by shooters lowering the hammer using the pinch method and none using the thumb roll method. Any oil on your finger.thumb or on the hammer itself and it is just to easy for the hammer to slip from your grasp. PM me if you are not sure how the thumb roll method works.

Take Care

Bob
 
Kidd X said:
Why would it be deemed safs to manually lower the hammer while depressing the trigger? The question isn't whether or not you would want to lower ths hammer on a sig by hand. The question is whether or not it would be acceptable?
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Of course it's acceptable, it's been done with CZ's for many years. I have never seen an AD using any of the different methods in 30+ years, although I have heard of them.

Suther said:
Da/sa has nothing to do with the presence of a decocker. It simply tells you the gun has a single action trigger when cocked and also has a double action trigger when uncocked.

Decocker is simply a feature on many da/sa guns to make decocking easier - a competent user should be able to do it without a decocker too, in case something was to malfunction.
Click to expand...

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Repete I doubt you have ever seen a SIG with a decocker, decocked by pulling the trigger either. Kidd X is just trolling. As you said, why would you?

Take Care

Bob
 
1riot1ranger said:
Yes.

In the absence of a decocker, if the start condition mandates a DA start (SSP) for a DA/SA pistol, then the hammer must be lowered manually. Either pinch and pull or thumb roll method.
Click to expand...

Oh so it's ok to thumb the hammer on a design that was never intended to be shot DA but it is not ok on a design that has a decocker.. Double standard? And please tell me what MIL or LE agency uses a shadow? The division is STOCK SERVICE PISTOL correct??

Suther said:
Da/sa has nothing to do with the presence of a decocker. It simply tells you the gun has a single action trigger when cocked and also has a double action trigger when uncocked.

Decocker is simply a feature on many da/sa guns to make decocking easier - a competent user should be able to do it without a decocker too, in case something was to malfunction.
Click to expand...

A DA/SA gun has a decocker. The only gun that does not have a decocker that is proclaimed to be DA/SA is the CZ line. We aren't discussing competence here we are discussing design. Accidents(which are really negligence) happen, and playing with the hammer and trigger simultaneously is a good place to start.

Canuck44 said:
Kidd X For you that is about the silliest post I have seen you write and you have written a few. I will chock it up to you just trolling, yet again or do you really not know the differences in how guns are classified or referred to as being. ie SA, DA/SA, DAO by shooting organizations and the ATF for that matter. I guess you can't be the real TDC because I am certain he knew.

For the OP I would strongly suggest you use the thumb roll method to lower the hammer on your SP-01 if you choose to start DA in ESP. I should say most would start cocked and locked. I have seen two AD's by shooters lowering the hammer using the pinch method and none using the thumb roll method. Any oil on your finger.thumb or on the hammer itself and it is just to easy for the hammer to slip from your grasp. PM me if you are not sure how the thumb roll method works.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Hey Bob, I am aware of the design characteristics of DAO, SA, DA/SA guns. You seemed to have missed my point which is why is it ok to use the trigger and thumb the hammer on one gun but not the other. If it is safe to do it with a CZ then it is safe to do it with any hammer fired gun. Yet the rules don't allow that? It;s almost as if the rules were tailor made to permit the unsafe action with the CZ..

As you posted you have seen two NEGLIGENT discharges when people have tried to lower the hammer. Again, it seems like the CZ series it not designed to be DA/SA but the competition circuit has decided it is. Oh and who cares what the incompetent ATF think or classify anything as. I question their belief that the sky is blue.

RePete said:
Of course it's acceptable, it's been done with CZ's for many years. I have never seen an AD using any of the different methods in 30+ years, although I have heard of them.



This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Click to expand...

Right, it's been done for years with CZ pistols... How many ND's have you heard of using the decocker??

Canuck44 said:
Repete I doubt you have ever seen a SIG with a decocker, decocked by pulling the trigger either. Kidd X is just trolling. As you said, why would you?

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Again Bob, you missed the point. It appears to some that thumbing the hammer on one model is ok while it is unacceptable on another. Either thumbing the hammer is ok or it isn't.
 
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