Can Remington 700 repeater beat 1/2 MOA

A

AlexF

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Right now, I'm just around 1/2 MOA mark with Remington 700 243 Win with a factory barrel and I'd like to know if and how it's possible to get better results.

My questions:
  1. Can a Remington 700 with factory barrel beat 1/2 MOA for an average 5 shot group?
  2. What improvement should I expect from a high quality match barrel?
  3. Would a Ballard, Shilen, Stiller or Surgeon repeater be an improvement over a Remington 700 action?

Alex
 
AlexF said:
Right now, I'm just around 1/2 MOA mark with Remington 700 243 Win with a factory barrel and I'd like to know if and how it's possible to get better results.

My questions:
  1. Can a Remington 700 with factory barrel beat 1/2 MOA for an average 5 shot group?
  2. What improvement should I expect from a high quality match barrel?
  3. Would a Ballard, Shilen, Stiller or Surgeon repeater be an improvement over a Remington 700 action?

Alex
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1. Yes, it can be done but it is a big ask. Can it do so consistently ? Mmmm.

2. If your factory tube is consistent 1/2 minute shoot it out. Custom barrels will be consistently better on average than the average factory barrel but if you have a great (1/2 min ) factory one then, like I say, keep it.

3. My Stiller is smoother in operation than any of my three remy's. Dimensions and tolerances are probably better which should aid in accuracy.
 
I have seen guys hang really good barrels off ugly actions and shoot like a house on fire. The rifle might look like ass, but if it shoots who cares? No points are awarded for how nice your rifle looks or how stylish you look on the firing point. Points are awarded on where they hit the target.

I would be happy with a 1/2 MOA factory rifle.
 
Can it be done? Yes.

Here is my experience. I have such a gun. It is a REM700 in .223. It is a 1989 HB blue BDL. All factory parts except a stock upgrade 1 year after I purchased it. I picked it up from the EE not knowing what it would do. This gun is extremely forgiving. I reload my own and if I do my part, sub 1/2" is very repeatable. So much so, this gun will do it with full length resized brass and neck sized brass. I recently noticed groups openeing up an dthought it was the gun but it was my brass prep that was off. Got back on track and as soon as I did that, it started shooting bug holes again. Even in load development this gun shoots great. I did a load testing session that included 5 shot groups over 5-6 different podwer loads. In the end, I had some groups in the .3s but the big surprise was that when all the groups were overlayed, the entire session of 25-30 shots with 5-6 different loads was under .8.

So, it appears I got lucky with this gun. I have tried to replce it twice with faster twist guns so that I can play the long range game. I had a Savage that shot well but was realistically a .5 moa gun. I am currently working on a Tikka to see if I can get even close the REM and thus have a good Varmint gun and a long range plinker. So far, .5 again but I have not spent enough time exploring a lot of different loads.


Long story short, it can be done. I think it is rare for a factory gun to be sub 1/2 inch and it is just a matter of luck finding one. When you find one, you can bed it, float the barrel, roll your own ammo etc... to try and find it's full potential.

here is a target I shot a while back. These groups were shot from 2 different powder loads. They were only 3 shot groups but it will do 5 shots into almost the same size holes.

Now ask me why I am crazy enough to consider selling it because I want a fast twist gun for long range:bangHead:


NOSBT-1.jpg
 
AlexF said:
Right now, I'm just around 1/2 MOA mark with Remington 700 243 Win with a factory barrel and I'd like to know if and how it's possible to get better results.

My questions:
  1. Can a Remington 700 with factory barrel beat 1/2 MOA for an average 5 shot group?
  2. What improvement should I expect from a high quality match barrel?
  3. Would a Ballard, Shilen, Stiller or Surgeon repeater be an improvement over a Remington 700 action?

Alex
Click to expand...

It's possible. The thing being once you get into sub 1/2" territory a lot of other factors come into play. Are you using wind flags, mirage boards, do you know how little wind and wind direction can affect your groups. It's possible your gun is a sub 1/2" gun already. A 2 mph wind that you cannot normally detect unless you have the most sensitive flags will make a gun that shoots into the .1's shoot a 1/4 inch out of the group, then you get a wind the other way and it will put the next shot a quarter inch the other way and you have a half inch group. Inconsistent hold will wreck a good group, trigger technique, all sorts of things can move that bullet impact a quarter inch one way or the other. Mass produced over the counter bullets that are squeezed out of 10 different bullet sizing dies and then all mixed together into the same box show their inconsistencies in sub half moa guns. Get custom bullets from a reliable maker that you know all the bullets in the box are absolutely identical made on the same press. There are many custom bench rest rifles out there that are capable of shooting in the .1's and very few guys who can actually shoot them to their potential. Read Tony Boyers or Mike Rattigans books on benchrest shooting.
 
Republic of Alberta said:
I have a full out custom that won't shoot 1/2 minute groups with many loads.

If you are shooting 1/2 inch groups with your factory rifle be happy and enjoy it.
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Even worse, my rifle is a Remington 700 VTR with a triangular barrel but sports an AI AICS stage 2.0 stock. It shoots very accurately all 68-80gr bullets that I've tried and gives 1/2-3/4 MOA accuracy with Hornady 95gr SST factory ammo.
I recently changed the factory trigger for a Jewell HVR trigger but my groups have not shrunk even if the trigger is 10 times better.

Getting it to shoot around 3/4 MOA was easy but reaching 1/2 MOA required work and all additional work have yielded nothing up to now.

I've caught the accuracy bug and am still working on getting better groups.

Alex
 
Oscar Makonka said:
It's possible. The thing being once you get into sub 1/2" territory a lot of other factors come into play. Are you using wind flags, mirage boards, do you know how little wind and wind direction can affect your groups. It's possible your gun is a sub 1/2" gun already. A 2 mph wind that you cannot normally detect unless you have the most sensitive flags will make a gun that shoots into the .1's shoot a 1/4 inch out of the group, then you get a wind the other way and it will put the next shot a quarter inch the other way and you have a half inch group. Inconsistent hold will wreck a good group, trigger technique, all sorts of things can move that bullet impact a quarter inch one way or the other. Mass produced over the counter bullets that are squeezed out of 10 different bullet sizing dies and then all mixed together into the same box show their inconsistencies in sub half moa guns. Get custom bullets from a reliable maker that you know all the bullets in the box are absolutely identical made on the same press. There are many custom bench rest rifles out there that are capable of shooting in the .1's and very few guys who can actually shoot them to their potential. Read Tony Boyers or Mike Rattigans books on benchrest shooting.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I've read a sample available of Tony Boyers's book and will order it right away.

Alex
 
I have 3 - maybe 4 - legitimate 1/2 min or better rifles. Funny thing though is if I don't shoot for a while they all turn into 1 MOA guns lol ! Practice and more practice is required in addition to rifle, ammo and glass all being top-notch.
 
AlexF said:
Right now, I'm just around 1/2 MOA mark with Remington 700 243 Win with a factory barrel and I'd like to know if and how it's possible to get better results.

Alex
Click to expand...


My questions:
  1. Can a Remington 700 with factory barrel beat 1/2 MOA for an average 5 shot group? Yes, but the odds are not good and the further you test, the less likely this will hold
  2. What improvement should I expect from a high quality match barrel? If all the other steps are taken to maximize the barrel, then absolutely, a quality match barrel properly installed should exceed 1/2 min even at LR
  3. Would a Ballard, Shilen, Stiller or Surgeon repeater be an improvement over a Remington 700 action? A Std Rem action can be modified to function just like a custom action. Just take all the slop out of the action and voila, same thing.

Problem with any solid bolt front locking action and BR accuracy is the loss of functionality in dirty conditions. By design, it is not easy to make these actions lock up vault tight AND still function in the field.

In the sterile conditions of a range, absolutely.

As many know, I favor the Savage but more importantly, the floating bolt head and sear/trigger function this action provides. Now I can have a tight lock up AND full function in the muck. Quite a simple and elegant solution to an ongoing problem.

So to answer your last question, it depends on how dirty you intend to get. For a Rem or similar action, the dirtier you expect to get, the less a custom action (or the process of tightening up an action) will benefit you.

Add enough slop to a custom action and guess what you have?

Jerry
 
MagnumPeanut said:
This would make me rage.

That's right. 1/2 MOA with a custom is a bad day. I expect consistency in the .3s on a custom. 5 shot groups of course.
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That's kind of a generic and unrealistic statement. Would you expect a custom .358 Winchester to shoot to the same level of accuracy as a 6mm PPC? I think not.

Having a custom rifle or aftermarket barrel installed on a factory rifle guarantees you nothing.
 
To get better than 1/2 5 shot groups from a custom means your loading has to be pretty good and your shooting form/setup has to be good. To get groups 0.3 and better both your loading,form and setup have to be top shelf.....
 
2bad4u2 said:
That's kind of a generic and unrealistic statement. Would you expect a custom .358 Winchester to shoot to the same level of accuracy as a 6mm PPC? I think not.

Having a custom rifle or aftermarket barrel installed on a factory rifle guarantees you nothing.
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We are still on the precision rifle forum, right?
 
I'm with MP. If I spent all that money on a rig for precision shooting and it would only shoot 1/2 min at shorter distances given the best possible chance of success, I would be not happy.

I spin on both Shilen and Mcgowen prefit barrels on my various Savage actions and get well under 1/2 min. In fact, shooting in the 1's and 2's is not uncommon at 200yds with a precision chambering and the usual work up.

Most would not consider a short range hunting cartridge as their top precision chambering. Not alot of quality bullets in this chambering.

however, a 338 Fed or 338-06 should get some very nice results given the quality bullets offered.

Garbage in, garbage out.

The best benchrest rifle in the world shooting milspec pulldown is not going to perform.

However, a well prepped Rem, Savage, Win, Ruger, Mauser, AR, whatever in an chambering with decent bullets SHOULD shoot to the potential of the barrel and set up.

If you want sub 1/2 min accuracy, you need to have set up that has a chance of delivering this. From the bench/rest through to the optics, it all matters.

But many factory pipes will not deliver the goods no matter what you do. That is why we use quality match barrels.

Single biggest product for success. Next up is bullets. Etc, etc, etc.....

Jerry
 
Canuck525 said:
To get better than 1/2 5 shot groups from a custom means your loading has to be pretty good and your shooting form/setup has to be good. To get groups 0.3 and better both your loading,form and setup have to be top shelf.....
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X2 ... Given that this forum has lots of precision shooters, there are likely many that have the equipment and ability to hold five shot groups under .3 @ 100M. I must say, however; that I seldom see many sub .5" (five shot) groups at the Range...(even one group, let alone consistent groups of that size... and even more rare are seeing really decent groups from anything over 6.5 chamberings). Anybody with "half minute" factory job is truly fortunate and should never part with that particular rifle! For several years, my "hobby" was to buy new hunting style rifles...float barrels...bed actions..tinker with triggers...and work up loads for a couple hundred shots..and then sell them with the load data. I could get some to give 3 shot agregates of 1/2"...but can't recall any that yielded that with five shots. Don't know if there are any "studies", but my anecdotal observation is that five shot (averages) are about 60% larger than three shot groups.
 
JEC said:
X2 ... Given that this forum has lots of precision shooters, there are likely many that have the equipment and ability to hold five shot groups under .3 @ 100M. I must say, however; that I seldom see many sub .5" (five shot) groups at the Range...(even one group, let alone consistent groups of that size... and even more rare are seeing really decent groups from anything over 6.5 chamberings). Anybody with "half minute" factory job is truly fortunate and should never part with that particular rifle! For several years, my "hobby" was to buy new hunting style rifles...float barrels...bed actions..tinker with triggers...and work up loads for a couple hundred shots..and then sell them with the load data. I could get some to give 3 shot agregates of 1/2"...but can't recall any that yielded that with five shots. Don't know if there are any "studies", but my anecdotal observation is that five shot (averages) are about 60% larger than three shot groups.
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So very true - I have reams of targets which, if I could eliminate one or two shots would leave some spectacular 3 and 4 shot groupings ! Getting 5 inside a half-minute is a much tougher task.
 
JEC said:
X2 ... Given that this forum has lots of precision shooters, there are likely many that have the equipment and ability to hold five shot groups under .3 @ 100M. I must say, however; that I seldom see many sub .5" (five shot) groups at the Range...(even one group, let alone consistent groups of that size... and even more rare are seeing really decent groups from anything over 6.5 chamberings). Anybody with "half minute" factory job is truly fortunate and should never part with that particular rifle! For several years, my "hobby" was to buy new hunting style rifles...float barrels...bed actions..tinker with triggers...and work up loads for a couple hundred shots..and then sell them with the load data. I could get some to give 3 shot agregates of 1/2"...but can't recall any that yielded that with five shots. Don't know if there are any "studies", but my anecdotal observation is that five shot (averages) are about 60% larger than three shot groups.
Click to expand...

I might have posted this already but my rifle is a 20" triangular bull barrel which makes it extremely stiff (probably 2 or 3 times stiffer) compared to a regular thin 24" hunting barrel.
I've also tried a .308 Win Remington 700 SPS Tactical with a 20" barrel bull barrel installed in my AI AICS stage 2.0 stock and this rifle was also a true 1/2 MOA rifle.

The Remington 700 action is a 50 year old design but I think that this action's rigidity (in short action), the short bull barrel's rigidity and a free floating barrel account for acceptional accuracy.

I spent a large part of this summer trying to get 1/2 MOA accuracy from a Remington 700 270 WSM with a light 24" hunting barrel and never got anything much better than 1 MOA with heavy VLD.
On the contrary, I'm getting better than 1 MOA accuracy from a 18.6" heavy barrelled 223 Rem semi-automatic rifle!

It seems that barrel rigidity is key to accuracy.

Alex
 
Who said my gun WON'T shoot better than 1/2 MOA?

I said it won't with many loads.



For those of you that think buying top shelf everything guarantees you better than 1/2 MOA groups with anything you put down the bbl you are living in a dream world. I can't even shoot under 1/2" groups at 100 every single day never mind the gun or the ammo.
 
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