Can you drive stick?

[redshooter]

Prove it.

For the last couple of years I've been trying to get my AR to shoot sub 3/4 MOA. My goal was 1/2, but as the project goes forward you begin to realize that you've hit that wall where if you want to go forward your going to have to put up some serious cash. Unless I step into some Cinderella story that just ain't happening. Occasionally I'll just shoot Iron Sights, over time I've gotten pretty good, not great, but I know only one guy at my local club that could put ten in a tighter space with certainty. As I live in a rural area I know a fair number of people who hunt with Irons, and can "put ten shots into a dime at 100 with my Daddy's 1892". I also know that half of them only fired their rifle once this year missing that Deer 200 yds. away (prob. 75...). I decided I'll leave the precision work for my Bolt Gun (for now), and put my HBARish back in its factory issued form minus the Carrying Handle. My testing yesterday went exceptionally well in my opinion.

As we were admiring my groups from test firing my rifle back in A2 accessories, buddy comments, "you drive stick pretty good", and then goes on to elaborate about how he feels that anyone under 30 can't drive stick, and probably can't shoot Irons if their life depended on it either. It's Winter, most of us are somewhat constrained in where and how much we can shoot so I thought I'd issue a challenge, "Can you drive stick?". 6" group, 100 yds./m, 10 shots, I'd suggest bags, or bi-pod, but I'll be seriously impressed if anyone can do it offhand. Post a pic of the hardware in its firing position and the group with some kind of measuring device in the pic to give you some credibility.

My long range load 75gr Hdy/24.5gr RL 15, 3.328"

Practice load, 55gr FMJ (Hdy)/26.7gr CFE, 3.426". I also fired 10 Cam-Pro's, about twice the group size. Hornady FMJ's seem to be more consistent.

Instead of keeping score, it's not really a contest after all, I'll name the shooter, page #, and post #.

njohnson, pg. 3, post 29, pg. 5, post 50.
RifleDude, pg.. 6, post 54.
redryder, pg. 7, post 65.
Daver_II, pg. 9, post 83.
turbo_bird, pg., 9 post 89 Not at 100m, but 1/2" on a scaled target.
DT791, pg. 10, post 94.
FarmerDanz, pg. 12, post 113
thatmikeguy, pg. 12, post 117
Slipery, pg. 13, post 124

 

[nowarningshot]

Im short sighted, and mid 50's. Need optics now. Would not even consider irons, except in the case of.a optic failure. Only a few even have irons, 100 would be my max range at a animal. Really couldn't care less how big my paper groups are with irons. Drove stick, more than automatic most of my life.

 

[redshooter]

Im short sighted, and mid 50's. Need optics now. Would not even consider irons, except in the case of.a optic failure. Only a few even have irons, 100 would be my max range at a animal. Really couldn't care less how big my paper groups are with irons. Drove stick, more than automatic most of my life.

Needing glasses sucks it hard. Hahaha, I actually need them, very weak correction though so I use Reading Glasses, 1.50 works, but I think I need to move up to 1.75. I use a black bull as I can resolve it well at 100 with the readers. I highly doubt I could see it well enough at 200-300 though, looking forward to giving it a try.

 

[lone-wolf]

Used to love shooting my ar with irons, if I remember I'll have to see how the mini14 does this spring. Can't get to the range this time of year.

As a side note, drive water truck in the oil field from time to time, and being in your 30s usually means you're the youngest guy on the job.
Not a bad ticket to have in your back pocket, being class 3 or better licensed.

 

[Still alive]

I’m with nowarningshot. I’m blind at both ends so very narrow range where things work. I can barely do 5” with a magnified optic! I can probably hit large paper with irons if you point me in the right direction.
And I’ve driven stick for 36 years and recently bought my first automatic transmission car.

 

[redshooter]

I suppose all you Geriatrics can use a Red Dot, but to remove the shame you must put ten into 4"...

 

[Travis Bickle]

I only shoot irons.
I've only shot irons my entire time in the hobby.
I've gotten extremely good with them over the years. 3" to 4" groups with irons and a stock rifle at 100meters is extremely good! Well done.

I don't hand load at all. So I only use factory ammo. Usually bulk. Using a decent quality AR15 and the cheapest junk 5.56mm I could find I would average about 4" to 6" groups at 100 meters, 10 round groups always. Sometimes occasional fluke smaller groups but over many that was the average (4 to 6). I don't shoot 2 or 3 round groups and I don't shoot all day and take the one fluke really tight group as my potential skill indicator.

That was always prone on the ground resting on a shooting bag. No lock in devices or anything.

I HATE scopes. Every time I put one on a gun I spend more time f**king with it than I do shooting. They fog up, they lose zero, a lot of optics need batteries, they're expensive...just can't stand them. #### them lol
I'm 35 and my eyes are sharp. If they fade I'll have to concede one day I guess but until then I rock irons.

I'm in the same boat as you brother. I always hear BS on these forums about guys shooting "2 MOA with irons all day" yadda yadda. Even guys with really high end guns and after being on a lot of ranges around a lot of fellow shooters, I've never seen anyone do this consistently...or at all really lol

The limiting factor on irons is the sight radius big time, the thickness of the front post (having a thin tapered post vice a big thick one or a "ball on post" type) and having a rear mounted peep vice the buckhorn type notch and post setup midway down the barrel (leading to a short sight radius on top of the other drawbacks) Although some rifles that have a long enough radius with the buckhorn type sights can be used pretty effectively.

I have a Mint Model 72A Winchester Tube Fed bolt .22LR that can print 10 rounds into 4" patterns at 100 meters using the stock semi buckhorn sights! I just picked it up and stripped and refinished it completely.
It's my most accurate gun meter for meter (limited in range obviously due to the caliber) I'm trying to figure out a way to retrofit it with a rear receiver mounted peep sight and then file and taper the front post to precision. I'm twitching to see how much more accurately I will be able to shoot this thing in that setup!

That's great shooting man. Be proud!

 

[Workin Man]

I suppose all you Geriatrics can use a Red Dot, but to remove the shame you must put ten into 4"...

A lot of those red dots have 3 MOA or larger dots, meaning it covers 3'' of the target at 100yds. Getting 4 " groups with one would be pretty good. I just turned 50 and have to concede that I can no longer shoot with irons. I can't bring the rear sight into proper focus (I can see the front sight and the target just fine). If I put on reading glasses the rear sight comes into focus, but everything else is a blur. I have tried a couple red dots and I am not a fan, so I guess I'm out.

I was impressed with your targets you posted. I notice that your groups are tighter in width than in height. This may be "vertical stringing" caused by the barrel heating up. I f you let it cool between shots, your groups may tighten up even more.

Jim

 

[Dexter Morgan]

I prefer to shoot handguns with iron sights.

But my rifles all have optics.

 

[Jube]

I love shooting irons on my semi autos, but I think my posts are a bit thick to hit anything thinner than 12" at 100m. Are any of you using finer posts?

 

[OkayShooter]

I would consider stick, being basic, no aids. Meaning no bipods/rests. Just using basic marksmanship fundamentals.

I like Irons because they're basic. But my eyes are saying no..

 

[Tyler]

Man, I'm really not looking forward to the day where I can't shoot irons. At 36 I guess it's drawing closer.

Aging sucks.

 

[lone-wolf]

I love shooting irons on my semi autos, but I think my posts are a bit thick to hit anything thinner than 12" at 100m. Are any of you using finer posts?

I got a little pack of a variety of front sight posts, I put a thinner one in back when I had my ar15 and I thought it was great.

 

[Butcherbill]

Nice shooting OP, I enjoy shooting irons as well.

 

[1rstEncountr]

But can you drive stick?

 

[B]

I only have a few rifles with optics. Usually just a red dot. I learnt with irons and just never really moved up from them.

 

[Coffice]

You bet your bottom dollar I'm going to try this, this weekend. Wont use a bag or anything. I'm a firm believer in the iron sights, had a few optics on my rifles but I just sold them off.

I placed 2nd in the Cabin Fever Challenge using irons in the "Modern" class. Practice makes perfect! A good carpenter knows his tools.

 

[redshooter]

I only shoot irons.
I've only shot irons my entire time in the hobby.
I've gotten extremely good with them over the years.

I'm 35 and my eyes are sharp. If they fade I'll have to concede one day I guess but until then I rock irons.

The limiting factor on irons is the sight radius big time, the thickness of the front post (having a thin tapered post vice a big thick one or a "ball on post" type) and having a rear mounted peep vice the buckhorn type notch and post setup midway down the barrel (leading to a short sight radius on top of the other drawbacks) Although some rifles that have a long enough radius with the buckhorn type sights can be used pretty effectively.

I'm not surprised at your dislike of optics, and not surprised you only shoot irons. I'm also not surprised that you shoot them well. On reflection over the years I've never read a post by you relating to anything but post WW2 Battle Rifles, or similar, and it sounds like you shoot about as much as I'd like to.

I use to have freakishly good eyes. I could actually read a road atlas at night (with the map light) while driving a Semi down the Interstate up until about 45. Then my near vision declined a bit alarmingly for a couple of years, then stabilized...pretty much. I discovered reading glasses for shooting by accident fiddling with my pistol. I forgot to switch back to my Safety Glasses, no Safety Nazi present so I carried on. Used them ever since, they work, and they are cheap, you just need a target with the right contrast, an 8" black bull on white seems to work well at 100m. You can get Safety Readers, they just don't come in the same variety of powers.

The 20" Rifle Sight Radius is really nice. The upper started life as a Large Pin Colt HBAR, so it had nice sights from the factory. The Front Sight was a bit porky, my current Post looks just like a C8 Post, and yes it made a huge difference in improving my consistency. I tired of that Large Pin BS and swapped out the Upper Receiver with a flattop, and eventually replaced the LMT clone I had with the real deal.

 

[redshooter]

A lot of those red dots have 3 MOA or larger dots, meaning it covers 3'' of the target at 100yds. Getting 4 " groups with one would be pretty good. I just turned 50 and have to concede that I can no longer shoot with irons. I can't bring the rear sight into proper focus (I can see the front sight and the target just fine). If I put on reading glasses the rear sight comes into focus, but everything else is a blur. I have tried a couple red dots and I am not a fan, so I guess I'm out.

I was impressed with your targets you posted. I notice that your groups are tighter in width than in height. This may be "vertical stringing" caused by the barrel heating up.

It's funny you noticed the vertical, it's actually from my brain still not settling on an instinctive aiming point for the style of target. I have a finer front post so I can aim at the center of the bull, I should be back at the range in a few days, and I'll try a few groups with a lollipop hold.

Regarding using Readers, if you need over 2.00 they might make it impossible to see any target beyond 50m. If you use 2.00 or less you might be ok, try a pair that are a bit too weak for you to read with 1.50 is getting a little weak for me to read fine print, but perfect for a good sight picture

Aging sucks.

Pretty much, could be worse though.

But can you drive stick?

I can.

I was actually going to shoot off my belly, but the shooting "table" is sized for DorfMan, and the snow is too deep in front of the firing points to see clearly over. We've had some melting over the last few days, maybe it will be possible in a few more. The melting was particularly terrifying today as we were shooting across buddy's "pond", standing on water just doesn't seem right to me, never mind walking the 400m lane 3 times, each time a little more water on top.

 

[cuslog]

I'm not a black or green rifle person but your title caught my attention.
I've always been amazed at how accurate it is possible to shoot with irons - specifically speaking, iron peeps front and rear.
Spend a bit of time on assra.com (American Single Shot Rifle Association) primarily a Schutzen rifle group. Mostly old boys shooting 100+ yr. old target rifles, cast lead bullets.
They mostly shoot 200 yards. I've seen photos of a few "perfect score" targets which would be 10 shots in the 25 ring which looks to be not more than 2" dia. at 200 yards !
Lots of 28 ~ 32" barrels, rear aperture sight behind the chamber so possibly up to 34 or 36" sight radius.
Them boys can drive stick !