can you tell me about the .45-90 Sharps and it's bigger brothers, the 110 and 120?

Mr. Friendly

Mr. Friendly

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I know from reading that the 110 and 120 were never actually called that, but were rather referred to by caliber and then cartridge length.

I started a thread under the Hunting & Sporting Arms forum, as I wanted to talk about these in relation to modern advanced gun powder have brought these old timers, but I was advised I should ask here, since they were/are BP cartridges.

are these used with modern powders? where can I find info on them if they are? I'm curious about velocities, recoil, optimum barrel lengths and modern rifles adapted to shoot these with modern powders...such as the T/C Encore or Pro Hunter.

thank you! :D
 
I owned a Shilo Sharps 45-120 for a while. Mine was a Farmingdale gun and had very shallow rifling and was only accurate with paper patched bullets. I sold it because it kicked like a mule and was just not comfortable to shoot. If my memory is correct the gun was between 10 and 12 lbs.

Relative to original guns, you do not want to shoot smokeless loads in them because they have a large firing pin hole in the breach block and you can have a burst primer. I think that also described my Farmingdale gun. Modern guns use firing pins around .07" diameter to prevent burst primers. I would not want to shoot a 45-120 cartridge in a rifle that only weighed 7 or 8 lbs; I think the recoil would be ferocious. I am under the impression that more than a few people lose interest in their guns after a short while because of the recoil. If I were buying an alternate to the Sharps, it would be a Ruger #1 action

I think you would be far better advised to use something in 45-70 caliber both because of the reduced recoil and the much lower price of brass

cheers mooncoon
 
I'll second that. I have a Pedersoli Sharps 45/70, a Marlin 45/70 and an original Winchester in 45/90. I've tried many others over the years... and suffice it to say I'm past the age where I want to beat myself up. The 45/70 offers that "black & blue" potential and more, but is also easier to find brass for, "easier" to load down for, and is just generally extremely versatile. Firing the Sharps with stout loads, or pretty much any 500 grain boolit, isn't any fun. But reduced 45/70 loads using 330-400 grain loads don't require much (or any) fillers, they load fast, the brass is relatively inexpensive and CERTAINLY easier to find... and really it's just as accurate.

My 45/90 is in a Winchester 86 action which does limit the shoulder pounding "capacity" of that loading, especially with the most accurate load in the original R.O.T. being a 300 grain pill. However, a full load of 2F and you still know you're alive.

Of course at some point the "want" scale overbalances the "need" scale, but that's entirely a "you" thing. :)
 
thanks for your thoughts mooncoon. :)

I've got a 15" Encore barrel in .45-70 that I will be using with plans to get one a bit longer to help with balance and optimizing performance.

I totally forgot about Quiqley and the .45-110 it popularized (mentioned in my other thread), but I've always wondered about just what could be done with straight walled cartridges.

I also understand that the falling block of the Ruger #1 is a much stronger action than the break action my T/C has.

using BP though, what kind of velocities could you expect to get out of a T/C Encore/Pro Hunter? could just get a barrel that's ported or threaded for a muzzle break just for the 'oooh OWCH' factor. ;)
 
I shoot a bunch of different BP cartridges including .45-70, .45-90, .45-100, and .45-110. I think with smokeless the .45-90 in a strong modern action is as big as I'd go for smokeless. The .45-70 has enough case capacity anyway I think.

In .45-70 with BP the highest velocity load I have is about 1275 fps with a 530gr bullet.
In .45-90 my loads are 1340-1350 fps with a 535gr bullet but you can go faster with a bullet with reduced driving bands. Probably just into the 1400 fps range.
In my .45-100 I use Swiss Fg for around 1360 fps but can get 1420 fps or so with Swiss 1.5. I prefer the slightly slower load which is a good place to be for long range shooting anyway.
In my .45-110 I have been using Goex Fg and a 540gr bullet at about 1365 fps. I'm somewhere in the 1400+ fps range using a 535gr bullet and Swiss 1.5. This is a very heavy rifle ( 15+ lbs ) so recoil is tame.

Smokeless in a .45-70 Ruger #1 can easily match or exceed any of these numbers.

Chris.
 
Anything larger than a 45-70 means you had better be comfortable with recoil. If you shoot .300s and .338s and enjoy it, you may enjoy 45-110 and 45-120s for more than just a few rds. Otherwise, the 45-70 is enough gun except in BC where you can't legally shoot a Bison with it.
 
sail32 said:
Try,

http://longrangebpcr.com/

https://singleshotexchange.com/there-is-no-magic-bullet-by.html
Click to expand...

thanks for that sail. I know this is the BP forum and the cartridges asked about are primarily BP...but are there any resources/articles/forums to talk about them with use in modern rifles and modern powders? that's where my interest lies and wasn't get much traction beyond the .45-70 in the hunting and sporting arms forum. ;)

I'm very curious to see if there are any details about the 300g Barnes TTSX .458 Socom bullet being used. I suspect that due to it's unusual length, it may be good to load it in the .45-90 so it can have the extra seating depth needed without sacrificing powder capacity that would be given up in the shorter .45-70. :yingyang:
 
Lyman castbullet manuel lists smokeless loads. Check EE for brass prices, 45-70 is much cheaper ( I have 45-100&45-120 brass for sale). Large powder charges, higher volicity, and big bullets have huge recoil. In my #3 a 405 over 50 gr 3031 is lots. Most guys dont like it.
 
I did a little looking. As far as I can tell the 45-70, 45-90 and the 45-110 all have the same rim diameter. I don’t see why you couldn’t have like a 38 special/357mag/357max scenario. But with a 15” barrel I think you’re primarily making bigger fireballs. In a lever action like a marlin 1895 if you could squeeze a 45-90 or 110 with smokeless you would get modern magnum level performance

Me friendly I have some 45-110 cases on hand if you want a couple to fondle.
 
hey gents! I would not ream the existing .45-70 barrel to -90...I'd get a custom made and at this time, only would do if it turned out something like that TTSX .458 Socom round would do better in the -90 than the -70 due to the extra seating depth it requires due to length of the bullet.

I would also like to say I've shot all 4...besides the fact I'm just curious if anyone actually loads them up with smokeless powder and what kind of difference that makes in performance from the usual BP. :D
 
Mr. Friendly said:
thanks for that sail. I know this is the BP forum and the cartridges asked about are primarily BP...but are there any resources/articles/forums to talk about them with use in modern rifles and modern powders? that's where my interest lies and wasn't get much traction beyond the .45-70 in the hunting and sporting arms forum. ;)

I'm very curious to see if there are any details about the 300g Barnes TTSX .458 Socom bullet being used. I suspect that due to it's unusual length, it may be good to load it in the .45-90 so it can have the extra seating depth needed without sacrificing powder capacity that would be given up in the shorter .45-70. :yingyang:
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I believe that I have tried those in my 45-90. Cant remember the results which are stored away in boxes right now.
 
98ssuck said:
I don’t see why you couldn’t have like a 38 special/357mag/357max scenario.
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you could chamber and fire 45-70 shells in a 45-120 chamber but accuracy would suffer considerably. The bullet should be just short of touching the rifling. For those who doubt that, clamp a 22 rimfire rifle in a rest of some kind and fire 5 shots with long rifle shells then new target and fire 5 shorts; you would be surprised how much the group opens up

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
you could chamber and fire 45-70 shells in a 45-120 chamber but accuracy would suffer considerably. The bullet should be just short of touching the rifling. For those who doubt that, clamp a 22 rimfire rifle in a rest of some kind and fire 5 shots with long rifle shells then new target and fire 5 shorts; you would be surprised how much the group opens up

cheers mooncoon
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Yes, shooting 45/70 out of my 45/90 is pointless for that reason. Tried it, wasn't impressed. Safe, sure, but accurate not so much. OK in a pinch but not if you're going for groups or competition. It is nothing like .38/.357, where I can get excellent accuracy out a .38 in a revolver (sometimes better than .357). Part of that I'll wager is that the forcing cone acts like an equalizer; in a rifle it's different physics.

I notice the same in my .32 Favorite, the Shorts work fine and are safe, yes - but the .32 long cases are substantially more accurate. And as mooncoon says, .22 short is another great example.
 
NorthCoastBigBore said:
Yes, shooting 45/70 out of my 45/90 is pointless for that reason. Tried it, wasn't impressed. Safe, sure, but accurate not so much.
.
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People should also recognize that if the gun is an original 45-90, the cartridge was an express cartridge and shot a lighter bullet. The philosophy of the day was that if you made the bullet lighter and put more powder behind it, it would shoot flatter. At close range that is correct but at longer range the slug has less weight and therefore less momentum and drops faster

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
People should also recognize that if the gun is an original 45-90, the cartridge was an express cartridge and shot a lighter bullet. The philosophy of the day was that if you made the bullet lighter and put more powder behind it, it would shoot flatter. At close range that is correct but at longer range the slug has less weight and therefore less momentum and drops faster

cheers mooncoon
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As a matter of fact I put up a thread about that a year or so ago, my 1886 (1889 DOM) has a 1:32" twist and 405+ bullets keyhole. 300/315 grain slugs go in perfectly round. Quite a substantial difference in that alone. It was an interesting test, I really did not expect that much of a difference I ASSumed the barrel was beyond salvation.
 
Shooting modern 'hig performance' loads in the 45-70 calibre is covered in extreme detail in Paul A. Matthews' excellent book 'Forty years with the .45-70'.

There are some VERY serious loads in that volume that will offer you all the pain that you so clearly seek! ;) An example from his book, on page 165, details a 'good deer load' - a 400gr water-proofed paper-patch bullet over 50gr of IMR-3031 @1780 fps.

Note, however, that he is decidedly NOT a long-range target shooter, but a mostly woodland hunter.

tac
 
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