Canada’s Ross rifle more peril than protection for First World War soldiers

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Canada’s Ross rifle more peril than protection for First World War soldiers

http://ww1.canada.com/battlefront/canadas-ross-rifle-more-peril-than-protection-for-first-world-war-soldiers-with-video

Battlefront
Battlefront
Canada’s Ross rifle more peril than protection for First World War soldiers (with video)


by John Ward,
The Canadian Press
Originally published: 10 hours ago



When soldiers in the throes of battle discard their rifles and pluck a different weapon from the hands of dead allies, there’s clearly a serious problem.

So it was with the Ross rifle, the weapon that Canadian soldiers took with them to the start of the First World War a century ago.

It was the brainchild of Sir Charles Ross, a wealthy Scottish-born engineer and inventor who offered it to the Canadian government as a military firearm well before the war began.

To Sir Sam Hughes, Canada’s minister of militia — defence minister in modern parlance — at the time, the Canadian-built Ross was highly accurate and the perfect tool for his soldiers, whom he saw as frontier marksmen.

rifle.jpg

A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press


But troops, some of whom sneered at the rifle as “the Canadian club,” soon discovered the Ross was not suited to dirty, rough-and-tumble trench warfare. They preferred the robust Lee-Enfield carried by their British comrades, picking them up from the battlefield when they could.

The .303-calibre, straight-pull Ross was longer than the Lee-Enfield, a problem in the cramped confines of the trenches. It was heavier, too, and in a day when infantrymen were over-burdened, any extra weight was unwelcome. When fired with its bayonet attached, it tended to shed the bayonet.

The Ross was also susceptible to jamming from dust and dirt and was very finicky about the quality of ammunition. The carefully machined cartridges made by the Dominion Arsenal worked fine, but not so the mass-produced British ammunition, which could vary in size beyond the Ross’s fine tolerances.

Further, it was easy to reassemble the Ross bolt incorrectly. Even when misassembled, the bolt would fit in the rifle and even chamber and fire a cartridge, only to slam back into the rifleman’s face — unheard of for most bolt-action rifles.

“The harsh test of trench warfare served to emphasize the new rifle’s imperfections,” wrote G. W. L. Nicholson, of the Canadian army historical section.

Ian McCollum, an Arizona-based firearms expert who runs the Forgotten Weapons website, has posted a You Tube video showing how the bolt can be compromised and what happens afterwards. He’s had 47,000 hits on the clip.

[youtube]hEaSui_UqDX8[/youtube]


Canada’s Ross rifle more peril than protection for First World War soldiers (with video)
by John Ward,
The Canadian Press
Originally published: 10 hours ago

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When soldiers in the throes of battle discard their rifles and pluck a different weapon from the hands of dead allies, there’s clearly a serious problem.

So it was with the Ross rifle, the weapon that Canadian soldiers took with them to the start of the First World War a century ago.

It was the brainchild of Sir Charles Ross, a wealthy Scottish-born engineer and inventor who offered it to the Canadian government as a military firearm well before the war began.

To Sir Sam Hughes, Canada’s minister of militia — defence minister in modern parlance — at the time, the Canadian-built Ross was highly accurate and the perfect tool for his soldiers, whom he saw as frontier marksmen.
A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,

A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press

But troops, some of whom sneered at the rifle as “the Canadian club,” soon discovered the Ross was not suited to dirty, rough-and-tumble trench warfare. They preferred the robust Lee-Enfield carried by their British comrades, picking them up from the battlefield when they could.

The .303-calibre, straight-pull Ross was longer than the Lee-Enfield, a problem in the cramped confines of the trenches. It was heavier, too, and in a day when infantrymen were over-burdened, any extra weight was unwelcome. When fired with its bayonet attached, it tended to shed the bayonet.

The Ross was also susceptible to jamming from dust and dirt and was very finicky about the quality of ammunition. The carefully machined cartridges made by the Dominion Arsenal worked fine, but not so the mass-produced British ammunition, which could vary in size beyond the Ross’s fine tolerances.

Further, it was easy to reassemble the Ross bolt incorrectly. Even when misassembled, the bolt would fit in the rifle and even chamber and fire a cartridge, only to slam back into the rifleman’s face — unheard of for most bolt-action rifles.

“The harsh test of trench warfare served to emphasize the new rifle’s imperfections,” wrote G. W. L. Nicholson, of the Canadian army historical section.

Ian McCollum, an Arizona-based firearms expert who runs the Forgotten Weapons website, has posted a You Tube video showing how the bolt can be compromised and what happens afterwards. He’s had 47,000 hits on the clip.

“I prefer the Ross,” he said in an interview. “I don’t know that I’d prefer it if I were in a sloggy, muddy trench, but I find the Ross sights are definitely better. I like the Ross action better. It’s smoother and faster.”

He said the Ross is a good rifle to fire, “provided it doesn’t throw the bolt into your head.”

“It was designed around Canadian production cartridges, which were quite good,” McCollum said. “They decided to stick to the tighter Canadian chamber because it gave them a slightly higher muzzle velocity, which in retrospect was kind of a dumb idea.”

collector.jpg

Bob McCormick holds one of his Canadian-made, First World War-era Ross rifles at his home in Haldimand, Ont.
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press


The Canadian authorities tried hard to convince the troops that the Ross was a good rifle, but in the spring of 1915, more than 3,000 men discarded the Ross in favour of the Lee-Enfield, despite threats of punishment.

After the gas attack at Ypres that April, an unidentified Canadian officer wrote: “It is nothing short of murder to send out men against the enemy with such a weapon.”

An official history says of that battle: “Rifle bolts jammed. Boot heels and entrenching tool handles opened some of them.”

The Ross was a highly accurate weapon later prized by snipers and sportsmen. But as a weapon of war in the trenches, it left much to be desired.

“Everything jammed in those circumstances, eventually,” McCollum said. “It’s just the Ross did it more often than most of the other guns.”

Although Hughes defended the rifle vigorously, the 1st Canadian Divisions got rid of their Rosses in 1915. The following year, the British military overrode Hughes’s objections and the rest of the Canadians adopted the Lee-Enfield.

“As it was built, it was not the best choice for the Canadian military,” McCollum said. “Once they adopted it, it’s hard to blame anyone for not wanting to throw them all away and buy a whole new set of rifles.”

Championing the Ross helped bring down Hughes, who resigned in November 1916.

“Hughes quite rightly defended the rifle by saying that the real problem was the quality of British ammunition, but this missed the larger point,” said Mark Humphries, who holds the Dunkley Chair in War and the Canadian Experience at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ont.

“The Lee-Enfield was a more rugged, reliable military weapon for use in the field while the Ross was a better sporting rifle. But Hughes was not asking Canadian soldiers to go hunting, he was asking them to fight for their lives and in this respect the Lee-Enfield gave them a better chance at survival.”

The salvaged Ross rifles were shipped home. Some were sold to hunters. Others were sent to Britain at the start of the Second World War, when any rifle was prized.

Some are still around, hanging on mantles, sitting in collections, or taken out every now and then when hunting season opens.

As for the Lee-Enfield, Canadian soldiers carried it through two more wars before it was retired in 1955.

chamber.jpg



Canada’s Ross rifle more peril than protection for First World War soldiers (with video)
by John Ward,
The Canadian Press
Originally published: 10 hours ago

Share
Comments
Email

When soldiers in the throes of battle discard their rifles and pluck a different weapon from the hands of dead allies, there’s clearly a serious problem.

So it was with the Ross rifle, the weapon that Canadian soldiers took with them to the start of the First World War a century ago.

It was the brainchild of Sir Charles Ross, a wealthy Scottish-born engineer and inventor who offered it to the Canadian government as a military firearm well before the war began.

To Sir Sam Hughes, Canada’s minister of militia — defence minister in modern parlance — at the time, the Canadian-built Ross was highly accurate and the perfect tool for his soldiers, whom he saw as frontier marksmen.
A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,

A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press

But troops, some of whom sneered at the rifle as “the Canadian club,” soon discovered the Ross was not suited to dirty, rough-and-tumble trench warfare. They preferred the robust Lee-Enfield carried by their British comrades, picking them up from the battlefield when they could.

The .303-calibre, straight-pull Ross was longer than the Lee-Enfield, a problem in the cramped confines of the trenches. It was heavier, too, and in a day when infantrymen were over-burdened, any extra weight was unwelcome. When fired with its bayonet attached, it tended to shed the bayonet.

The Ross was also susceptible to jamming from dust and dirt and was very finicky about the quality of ammunition. The carefully machined cartridges made by the Dominion Arsenal worked fine, but not so the mass-produced British ammunition, which could vary in size beyond the Ross’s fine tolerances.

Further, it was easy to reassemble the Ross bolt incorrectly. Even when misassembled, the bolt would fit in the rifle and even chamber and fire a cartridge, only to slam back into the rifleman’s face — unheard of for most bolt-action rifles.

“The harsh test of trench warfare served to emphasize the new rifle’s imperfections,” wrote G. W. L. Nicholson, of the Canadian army historical section.

Ian McCollum, an Arizona-based firearms expert who runs the Forgotten Weapons website, has posted a You Tube video showing how the bolt can be compromised and what happens afterwards. He’s had 47,000 hits on the clip.

“I prefer the Ross,” he said in an interview. “I don’t know that I’d prefer it if I were in a sloggy, muddy trench, but I find the Ross sights are definitely better. I like the Ross action better. It’s smoother and faster.”

He said the Ross is a good rifle to fire, “provided it doesn’t throw the bolt into your head.”

“It was designed around Canadian production cartridges, which were quite good,” McCollum said. “They decided to stick to the tighter Canadian chamber because it gave them a slightly higher muzzle velocity, which in retrospect was kind of a dumb idea.”
Bob McCormick holds one of his Canadian-made, First World War-era Ross rifles at his home in Haldimand, Ont.

Bob McCormick holds one of his Canadian-made, First World War-era Ross rifles at his home in Haldimand, Ont.
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press

The Canadian authorities tried hard to convince the troops that the Ross was a good rifle, but in the spring of 1915, more than 3,000 men discarded the Ross in favour of the Lee-Enfield, despite threats of punishment.

After the gas attack at Ypres that April, an unidentified Canadian officer wrote: “It is nothing short of murder to send out men against the enemy with such a weapon.”

An official history says of that battle: “Rifle bolts jammed. Boot heels and entrenching tool handles opened some of them.”

The Ross was a highly accurate weapon later prized by snipers and sportsmen. But as a weapon of war in the trenches, it left much to be desired.

“Everything jammed in those circumstances, eventually,” McCollum said. “It’s just the Ross did it more often than most of the other guns.”

Although Hughes defended the rifle vigorously, the 1st Canadian Divisions got rid of their Rosses in 1915. The following year, the British military overrode Hughes’s objections and the rest of the Canadians adopted the Lee-Enfield.

“As it was built, it was not the best choice for the Canadian military,” McCollum said. “Once they adopted it, it’s hard to blame anyone for not wanting to throw them all away and buy a whole new set of rifles.”

Championing the Ross helped bring down Hughes, who resigned in November 1916.

“Hughes quite rightly defended the rifle by saying that the real problem was the quality of British ammunition, but this missed the larger point,” said Mark Humphries, who holds the Dunkley Chair in War and the Canadian Experience at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ont.

“The Lee-Enfield was a more rugged, reliable military weapon for use in the field while the Ross was a better sporting rifle. But Hughes was not asking Canadian soldiers to go hunting, he was asking them to fight for their lives and in this respect the Lee-Enfield gave them a better chance at survival.”

The salvaged Ross rifles were shipped home. Some were sold to hunters. Others were sent to Britain at the start of the Second World War, when any rifle was prized.

Some are still around, hanging on mantles, sitting in collections, or taken out every now and then when hunting season opens.

As for the Lee-Enfield, Canadian soldiers carried it through two more wars before it was retired in 1955.
A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,


chamber.jpg

A Canadian-made Ross Rifle Mark III, used in the trenches in the First World War by the First Canadian Division, is shown in the home of collector Bob McCormick in Haldimand, Ont.,
Aaron Lynett, The Canadian Press

Some quotes about the ill-fated Ross rifle used by Canadian soldiers during the early years of the First World War:

“They are fantastic rifles for sportsmen.” — Ian McCollum, an Arizona-based firearms expert who has experimented with the Ross.

“In a number of ways. it got the raw end of the stick, but as it was built it was not the best choice for the Canadian military.” McCollum.

“If the Ross was supplied with good Canadian ammo, that wasn’t a problem. The problem was there wasn’t enough of that ammo and logistics simply dictated that guys with the Ross would end up with British ammo sooner or later.” McCollum, explaining that the Ross tended to jam when firing British cartridges which were sometimes slightly oversized.

“During the repeated attacks, the Canadians became frustrated with the failure of their Ross rifles. They jammed after firing, at most, three rounds. To force the bolt open, a man had to lie down and take his heel to it.” — Arthur Bishop, writing about Canadians and the poison gas attacks at Ypres in his book, “Canada’s Glory, Battles that Forged a Nation.”

“It is not surprising that many of the 1st Division armed themselves with with Lee-Enfield rifles acquired from British casualties.” — Historian G.W.L. Nicholson in the 1962 official history of the Canadian Army in the First World War.

“The Ross rifle lived up to its reputation as a target rifle, accurate and effective in the hands of a marksman; but unfortunately it also lived up to and enhanced its record for jamming, and a rifle which jammed in such circumstance was damned.” — Canadian military historian Fortescue Duguid, writing in the 1930s about the Ypres battles.

“The seriousness of its shortcomings as a service arm was only appreciated after trial in the trenches had superseded experimentation on the ranges or in the laboratory.” — Duguid.
 
An inferior weapon thrust upon enlisted men for political reason.
Much like the M16 debacle in Vietnam .
 
An inferior weapon thrust upon enlisted men for political reason.
Much like the M16 debacle in Vietnam .

Actually, I wouldn't include the M 16 in this. Remember, the M 16 and/or it's derivatives are still in use today, even by us, and is considered an excellent firearm.

The problem with the rifle in Vietnam had to do with the powder used in the ammo, plus the fact the troops were told the rifle didn't need to be cleaned. Also bear in mind that this was a wholly new, and radically different gun design, and unfortunately, didn't get the thorough testing that it should have gotten before being deployed.

Colt went and chrome-lined the barrels, the ammo makers used a better smokeless powder, and the troops started cleaning their rifles. After that, no more problems, which is why the rifle still lives on, even if some people still don't like it's small bullet.
 
Actually, I wouldn't include the M 16 in this. Remember, the M 16 and/or it's derivatives are still in use today, even by us, and is considered an excellent firearm.

The problem with the rifle in Vietnam had to do with the powder used in the ammo, plus the fact the troops were told the rifle didn't need to be cleaned. Also bear in mind that this was a wholly new, and radically different gun design, and unfortunately, didn't get the thorough testing that it should have gotten before being deployed.

Colt went and chrome-lined the barrels, the ammo makers used a better smokeless powder, and the troops started cleaning their rifles. After that, no more problems, which is why the rifle still lives on, even if some people still don't like it's small bullet.
The parallels are very similar.
Both rifles were dismal failures when issued and resulted in a great deal of needless deaths to the men they were issued.
Both times the respective political powers that be knew the rifles were a liability to draftee enlisted men but didn't care.
Also in both cases more effective/reliable rifles were readily available.
 
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There's a lot more to the M16 story than that. You should read #### Culver's interesting writeup on Jouster about the Marines' experiences with the then new M16's. The damned things did not work, at all, even when scrupulously cleaned.

I personally fired an M16 at a range in Vietnam, the thing was spotless...and would not work, at all. It was no doubt one of those left over afterwards...

http://www.jouster.com/

(hold mouse over Sea Stories, hit The Saga of the M16, part 1)


Actually, I wouldn't include the M 16 in this. Remember, the M 16 and/or it's derivatives are still in use today, even by us, and is considered an excellent firearm.

The problem with the rifle in Vietnam had to do with the powder used in the ammo, plus the fact the troops were told the rifle didn't need to be cleaned. Also bear in mind that this was a wholly new, and radically different gun design, and unfortunately, didn't get the thorough testing that it should have gotten before being deployed.

Colt went and chrome-lined the barrels, the ammo makers used a better smokeless powder, and the troops started cleaning their rifles. After that, no more problems, which is why the rifle still lives on, even if some people still don't like it's small bullet.
 
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As with the Ross, US troops early on in Vietnam would have been better off with SMLE's. Also like the Ross story, the M14/ AR15 debacle is full of bureaucratic bungling and silliness. I've read the big 1984 book about the Ross and it's a hard slog with very little positive to say about the Ross or our government at the time. I own a late Ross and it blows my mind that the bolt can be assembled in two different ways! Certainly the Mannlicher M95 that Ross copied didn't have this flaw.

milsurpo
 
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No firearm story ever has a simple explanation.

One of the main problems with the Ross was that it had the No. 1 Mk 3 as an immediate comparison.

Remember the Austro-Hungarian and Bulgarian armies used the 1895 Mannlicher straight pull rifle, with it's 30 inch barrel, up and into WW2.

Also remember the original reason the Ross was adopted was that the UK would, or could not supply Lee Enfield's.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/rifles.htm
 
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The Ross rifle should be considered a source of national shame IMHO.
Our troops were drafted to fight a war under inept foreign generalship.
Furthermore the war didn't affect Canada in any way and those that perished in it died in vain.
To add insult to injury the rifle they were issued was a poor design selected only as a political favor.
 
There's a lot more to the M16 story than that. You should read #### Culver's interesting writeup on Jouster about the Marines' experiences with the then new M16's. The damned things did not work, at all, even when scrupulously cleaned.

I personally fired an M16 at a range in Vietnam, the thing was spotless...and would not work, at all. It was no doubt one of those left over afterwards...

http://www.jouster.com/

(hold mouse over Sea Stories, hit The Saga of the M16, part 1)

I just finished reading that article and was surprised to find out just how hated the "toy gun" was hated by those at the sharp end. The Ross made it's reputation on the target ranges and in the game fields, a combat rifle it was not.
 
During WW1 Canadian troops were not drafted and fought under Canadian Generals.

The M-16 was a hurried adoption as it was all ready in production for the US Air force who issued it to their airfield guards.
 
There was nothing wrong with the Ross as a rifle. It just wasn't a battle rifle. It was a very good target rifle and, later, was a very good sniper's rifle.
Sam Hughes was nuts and corrupt. Chuck Ross was one of his buddies trying to start a business. Hughes' corruptly helped. I seem to recall Hughes was on Ross' Board of Directors.
There was no 'draft' in Canada. Read the history of the 'Conscription Crisis" in both Wars.
The M-16 was jammed down the throat of the U.S. Military, then the 5.56 NATO was jammed down NATO's throat. Anyway, the issue with the rifle proved to be the ammo and not issuing cleaning kits.
#### Culver died 24 Feb., 2014. RIP.
 
The early ones didn't have the bolt assembly issue. If there was proper training for troops in the mud or even a simple extra emphasized point drilled in in training that the bolt sleeve is the only component of the rifle that is harder to put together the right way than the wrong way things would have been fine with the MkIII as well. Or maybe there was and the whole blow back problem was more of a civy street thing? I don't know what to think anymore.

Also TRRS didn't really take a negative stance on the rifle. It was what it was. The rifle was not yet perfected when it was fielded. And yeah, our government hasn't changed in 100years. Still a bunch if inefficient morons IMO.
 
Hughes and Ross should have both been hanged.
There were riots in Montreal over the draft
The entire war was a waste of Canada's time, resources and men.
 
The choice was never between the Ross and the SMLE: it was between the Ross and the Martini.

Canada attempted to purchase the new SMLE rifle, offered to buy them from the Royal Small Arms Factories. No go: the "Colonies", Canada included, were not to be ALLOWED to have the new rifle.

Canada attempted to purchase rifles from BSA, but the purchase was blocked. Canada attempted to have BSA set up a plant here but that, also, was blocked.

Canada was to be allowed to purchase (perhaps) a quantity of second-hand (Long) Lee-Enfields or Lee-Metfords (both already obsolete in the British Army). Definitely, Canada would be allowed to have more Martinis. The opinion of the Canadian Government was that Canada already had enough museum-pieces; Canada wanted MODERN rifles.

The choice, therefore, was between the Ross and the MAUSER..... which was not available in .303 calibre.

Just keeping things straight.......
 
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The choice, therefore, was between the Ross and the MAUSER..... which was not available in .303 calibre.

Just keeping things straight.......
Actually the Winchester 95 was available chambered in 303 British.
That rifle was also used by the Russians during WW1 chambered in 7.62x 54r to supplement stocks of mosin nagants
So there were options available to negate fielding a rifle that didn't propel the bolt into the users eye socket and that would constantly jam shut in field conditions
Hughes and Ross should have been publicly hung rather than both profiting handsomely
 
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P14 and model1917 both made right next door. Mosin's and Belgian Mausers made next door. A Mosin chambered in .303- that would have been perfect!
 
I fire my Ross rifles all the time. I still have both eyes and all of my cheekbones!

What you didn't hear talked about in the British or Canadian Press corp., or the either countries newspapers, was the fact that the much vaunted Number 1 Mk3 (SMLE) during the early part of the war also had the oversize British contract ammo stick in the chambers of their rifles and cause much grief in combat. However, unlike the lambasting the Ross got in the press due to stuck oversize cases, the SMLE's reputation remained unscathed as their rifles were quietly removed from service long enough to ream their chambers larger, and be re-issued. It is not unreasonable, even during war time, to expect ammunition to be made to spec. The fact that these British Contractors got away with producing crap ammo, should have been the real story.

The politics of business also played a great part as well. Don't think for a minute, that after soundly getting trounced at Bisley for several years by the Ross, that the members of the British gun makers trade weren't above complaining bitterly to their masters and weren't also glad to see/contribute in any way possible to the demise of the Ross.
 
I just finished reading that article and was surprised to find out just how hated the "toy gun" was hated by those at the sharp end. The Ross made it's reputation on the target ranges and in the game fields, a combat rifle it was not.

IMHO? If our soldiers had been issued with our ammunition, the Ross would have had far fewer problems.

The Brit reject out of spec ammo they issued our guys was a large part of the problem.

3 design differences would have helped:

Maybe a 25 inch barrel instead of the 30" one. (too long and awkward)
The larger bolt stop so the bolt wouldn't get damaged from the slamming back.
Making damned sure we got our own ammunition.
 
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