Canadian Issue Starr Carbine, Fenian Raid Era Collection - New Pics

[cigar_man]

I have added better pictures, no rain today.


I thought you may enjoy this here, I also posted this on another forum.

Just picked up a Canadian Issue Starr Carbine #37094 today.

This will give some comfort to my Fenian Raid Era Collection;
Canadian issue Spencer Carbine,
Canadian Issue Peabody Rifle

Canadian General Service Medal (Fenian Raid-June 2, 1866)
(John McHaffie who was at the Battle of Ridgeway with the 13th Battalion, Hamilton)

John McHaffie was a prosperous cigar and tobacco merchant.
He was devoted and attentive to his business, but was never so engrossed in business as to ignore the claims of social life,
the spirit of improvement among his people, or the general welfare of the community.
He was also an enthusiastic and zealous member of the Canadian militia,
having been active in helping to raise and muster into service one of the first volunteer companies in th country,
and subsequently rendered service with the regiment at the time of the Fenian raid, and also during the adjustment of the Trent affair.

Only other makings on the Starr are a small JH beside the Inspector cartouches on left side of stock.

Exc, shape, pristine bore, lost of case hardening.

W/D marked on the butt.

56-52 rimfire

Canadian General Service Medal - Fenian Raid 1866

John McHaffie was a prosperous cigar and tobacco merchant.
He rests in Brantford, Ontario.

Spencer Carbine 1865

Peabody Rifle

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Very nice piece & a nice addition to your collection indeed - congratulations! Those early rimfire carbines have always interested me.

 

[antiqueguy]

wow that medal has me more interested then the rifle I have a hard to finding ww2 medals I hear a lot were scrapped for their silver

 

[tiriaq]

Keep your eyes open for a Needham conversion. The forend will be cut under the band. Have seen a few over the years.
There was one at a recent Jim MacMillan auction. Didn't see it, but it very well might have been a Fenian one. Any with Ontario provenance may well be.

 

[mooncoon]

What is interesting (and useful) about the Starr is that the extractor springs forward against the barrel after you have opened the action all the way. That prevents the shooter getting a cartridge rim ahead of the extractor during loading

cheers mooncoon

 

[cigar_man]

Keep your eyes open for a Needham conversion.

I was down in Winchester, Virginia in May at the North South Skirmish Association Spring Nationals.
One dealer had three of them, two Irish marked on the wood with a Shamrock.
Condition was Ok, but I was looking for better.

I have seen Needham conversions for the last 4 years in a row there.
The dealer is on the hunt for what I'm looking for.
They are a well made and robust conversion.

 

[plinker 777]

^ by Irish marked, do you mean American IRA or the republic of? In the former scenario identical rifles could have been exchanging fire at one another!

Very kewl collection. Is the action metal attributed to anyone in particular?

 

[cigar_man]

Irish Fenian Brotherhood's stamp on the rifles was a shamrock.

Needham conversion was used in Fenian raids of 1870.
(Battle of Eccles Hill)

 

[plinker 777]

Is the Irish Fenian Brotherhood not also known as the Irish Republican Army? {which was founded in America circa 1860's, not Ireland as most assume}Or are they two separate entities/organizations?

I don't mean to derail the thread, just curious if my historical understandings are correct.

 

[cigar_man]

All that I know, is they where an Irish Republican organization in the U.S. of A from around 1858 ish.

I have never read that where also know as the Irish Republican Army, only Irish Republican Brotherhood that went by the name of Fenians.

Some one with more knowledge might be able to chime in.

 

[drm3m]

I received this photo from Bill Adams.

It shows the Shamrock on the stock of an Enfield P.53

Richard Henry Evans, Etobicoke, Ontario. I believe that he fought during the 1866 actions as the P53 was likely not in service in 1870.



David

 

[cigar_man]

Fenian Raids have always interested me.

I live about 40 minutes from the Ridgeway Battlefield.

Hamilton's 13 Battalion (RHLI of today) is in the same city as me.

There is alot of Military history close by in the way of the War of 1812 also.

 

[drm3m]

cigar_man we have communicated about this subject before.

My mother's grandfather James Pell fought at Eccles Hill against the Fenians in 1870.
Supposedly he fired the first shot in that battle with a Ballard Rifle that he was involved in purchasing.

On June 20, 1868, Asa Westover and Andrew Ten Eyck of Dunham, Quebec, organized a small band of local men into the Missisquoi Home Guard called the “Red Sashes” because of the distinctive red band they wore across their chests. Although they used their own arms and ammunition initially, Westover and James Pell visited several factories in Massachusetts to determine a more suitable weapon for the home guard. They selected the breech-loading Ballard Sporting Rifle, which was known for its accuracy. The rumours of another invasion kept the home guard alert and, along with regular drill and sharp-shooting practices, they also selected strategic positions in which to place their men around Eccles Hill should the Fenians return.



David

 

[drm3m]

A photo showing the victorious 'Red Sashes' following the Fenian battle at Eccles Hill on May 25 1870.



A photo of what this same place looked like in 2009-----somewhat changed.
This photo was taken by people from this area that understood where this old photo above was taken.



The monument commemorating this victory against the Fenians at Eccles Hill on May 25 1870.



David

 

[GrantR]

Fantastic addition to your collection, my friend .... I am positively Fenian Green with envy!

The military arm of the Fenian Brotherhood was indeed called the Irish Republican Army - this detail from one of the colour plates in Osprey Men-At-Arms #249 (Canadian Campaigns 1860-70) depicts a Fenian Private who didn't make it home after the Eccles Hill raid. The tunic (and button detail) are based on an actual Fenian tunic taken home by Prince Arthur of Connaught (60th Rifles, British Army) which came back to the Parks Canada collection in the 1980's -

The full plate -

The 46th Battalion Private is wearing the Pattern 1863 tunic which was unique to the Canadian Militia -

These photos were taken after the men had been issued Snider-Enfield rifles to replace their P'1853 Enfield Rifle Muskets .... their equipment remained exactly the same, with the exception of no longer needing the percussion cap pouch seen on the crossbelt in the colour plate, and removing the tin liner from their shoulder-slung cartridge box, to better accommodate ten-round packets of Snider cartridges, which were slightly bulkier than the similar packets of paper cartridges used for loading the P'1853 rifle.

I am in the process of completing a circa-1870 Canada Militia uniform incorporating this tunic pattern, in which I will compete in the Grand Army of the Frontier Muster in Nebraska on the last weekend of this month. All I have left to do is put the finish my shako and then mount this original Canada Militia General Service shako badge I just acquired -

I am badging my uniform specifically to the 43rd (Carleton) Battalion, because there were no less than three Privates in that Battalion from my family who were awarded the Canada General Service medal with 1870 Fenian Raid bar(I am fortunate enough to have one of the original medals in my collection) and will be shooting my Canadian-issue Snider-Enfield rifle marked to the 43rd Battalion ....

 

[drm3m]

I like the Canadian marked Starr carbine----it is a beauty!

Some photos of Eccles Hill ---Fenian event on May 25 1870.

The captured Fenian field piece.



A Fenian invader.



Other photos of the captured Fenian cannon.





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This might be a bit disjointed---but I think the S&W No.2s referred to below fit into the Fenian subject.
I used to have photos of the pistols but they evaporated on flickr.

Apparently a couple of Smith & Wesson No. 2 Old Model Army revolvers with some Fenian Raid history were sold in Canada.
The revolver that was presented to Charles Clarke of the Elora Rifles after the Finian Raids.

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/clarke_charles_13E.html

With serial number 50550 it was manufactured after 1865....probably in 1866 the year it was presented to Clarke.

In local military affairs he had helped form the Elora Volunteer Rifles in 1861, rose to its command during the Fenian raids of 1866, and was later promoted lieutenant-colonel of the 30th (Wellington) Battalion of Rifles.

Interesting auction results for the other S&W. (Big bucks)
The sister pistol sold for over $13,000 at Canadian auction and that was a while ago.
The sister pistol that was addressed to Nathaniel Higinbotham and sold at major auction several years ago.
Links discussing Higinbotham’s place in Canadian history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Higinbotham

http://ward4news.ca/Blog.php?date=1304733713

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/2769553-historic-pistol-up-for-auction/

An example of an S&W No. 2 Old Model Army revolver. (.32 rimfire)



David

 

[drm3m]

I have no idea what the Canadian holsters looked like for the S&W Old Army No.2 revolvers that were presented to the Canadian Fenian Raid vets indicated above.

These revolvers were widely used during the U.S. Civil War.

These were some of those holsters.





A period photo of a U.S. Civil War soldier with this model S&W revolver.



David

The leather is harder to find than the guns.

 

[drm3m]

Some comments from Joe Bilby regarding the Fenian chapter.

The 1866 Fenians were armed with rifle muskets and Smith carbines -- some of the Canadians had Spencers, and the Canadian government bought more Spencers in the wake of the "invasion." Unless they were personal weapons, the Fenians never used Spencers. I mention this in passing in my new book on the Spencer and Henry. The Fenians of 1870 were armed with the Needham conversion of the Model 1863 rifle musket. The story is mentioned in Flayderman's "Guide" the guns were converted in Trenton by Trenton Arms Company, and a Fenian leader was a silent partner in the company.

Having written a book on the Irish Brigade, and being of Irish American heritage myself, I am very familiar with the Fenians, as well as the perpetual bungling that characterized their efforts.

The 1866 invasion was actually tactically successful, if I recall, but the victorious Fenians suffered the usual leadership lapse after the Battle of Ridgeway. At that point most Fenian troops were CW vets.

By 1870, the vets had better things to do, and the Fenian force that crossed into Canada with weird looking conversions of CW muskets (designed by a Brit and made in a factory in Trenton NJ by a firm that had a Fenian leader as secret partner) were a lot of unemployed kids swept up off the streets of NYC -- of course the Canadians had no way of knowing that. Am familiar with the Ballard story -- they chose wisely -- very accurate long range guns, and the long range fire from the Ballards, if I recall, made the Fenians decide they had business elsewhere.

Needham Conversions used by the Fenians----From Flayderman's Guide.















David

 

[GrantR]

It is my understanding that the Spencer carbines and rifles acquired for Canadian Militia use in response the Fenian threat were Model 1865s - 1,300 carbines acquired by Canada in its own right; 1,000 carbines and 2,000 rifles acquired by Britain for loan to Canada (but subsequently gifted to the Dominion by the Imperial government.)

It is estimated that only about 3,000 Model 1865 Spencers were manufactured in rifle configuration .... in which case, two-thirds of that production ended up in Canada! (Something in the order of 23,000 Model 1865 carbines were made, on the other hand.)

Studio portrait of a Fenian Raids-era Rifleman of the Queen's Own Rifles armed with a Spencer rifle -

I don't have an original Spencer, but have acquired an Armi Chiappa/Cimarron reproduction, chambered in 56-50 (albeit the modern center-fire version .... not quite true to the original configuration I gather, but close -

Canada also contracted for 5,000 Peabody rifles ... although delays in production enabled the Militia Department to exercise an option to take only 3,000 .... and Britain also bought 1,000 Starr carbines, although apparently only 228 of those were turned over for Canadian Militia use ..... the balance went to Royal Navy vessels operating on the Great Lakes ....

I have an original Canada Militia-marked Peabody rifle chambered in 50-60 Peabody -

 

[cigar_man]

drm3m

I mention this in passing in my new book on the Spencer and Henry

Is this book out yet?

I wish there was a section on one of the forums for Canadian Arms and the history related to them.